Germany's Vanishing Monasteries • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#71

Post by masklinn » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 1:05 PM UTC

hrktb wrote: post #31

dschuetz wrote: post #15

Is there any possible modern approach to a traditional catholic monastery? I think, they are dying out, because of their rigid traditions which rarely make sense in our modern world anymore. The idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to introspection and philosophy, and serving the monastery with its inhabitants, no matter what religion or philosophy. Why are they having so much trouble to keep up wit…

Our western societies fundamentally value extroversion, exchanging with the world and participate in the group. A monastry is the opposite. It worked when praying for the world was largely accepted as having some effect. Nowadays thoughts and prayers doesn’t cut it for the general population. In a way high level research institutes could be seen as the new monastries, with people shutting down in buildings everyday,…

> Our western societies fundamentally value extroversion, exchanging with the world and participate in the group. A monastry is the opposite.

Monasteries absolutely require participation in the group. Monks are not hermits, much of their activity is working for the monastery and interacting with other monks.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#72

Post by coldtea » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 1:08 PM UTC

dschuetz wrote: post #15

Is there any possible modern approach to a traditional catholic monastery? I think, they are dying out, because of their rigid traditions which rarely make sense in our modern world anymore. The idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to introspection and philosophy, and serving the monastery with its inhabitants, no matter what religion or philosophy. Why are they having so much trouble to keep up wit…

>The idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to introspection and philosophy (...) no matter what religion or philosophy

No, the idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to God, and specifically the God of a specific religion.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#73

Post by masklinn » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 1:08 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #10

I would love to see old monasteries turned into various kinds of retreats. The idea of spending a week or a month with no electronics, all my meals prepared, and quiet time to just read, study and think sounds fantastic.

> The idea of spending a week or a month with no electronics, all my meals prepared, and quiet time to just read, study and think sounds fantastic.

If you just want a hostel / retreat, many monasteries already provide that service through their guest-houses.

I think it would be way more interesting and useful to be able to actually be part of the community save for the religious part: taking part in the preparation and work, and be able to engage in one's secular activity (study, projects, reading, …) during the periods where monks engage in religious activities. Of course the issue with that is there is little incentive for churches to subsidise such inviduals (unlike even the lay brothers of old).

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#74

Post by baud147258 » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 1:09 PM UTC

conjectures wrote: post #66

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why address such a comment to someone who has made clear they believe in the existence of God? There is no reason to provoke peoples' religious beliefs.

Surely because the thread is about people wondering, 'why are monasteries declining?' A substantial reduction in religious belief could explain away a large part of monastic decline.

Yes and I addressed it in my comment: "the decline of religion/religious practice "

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#75

Post by noonespecial » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 1:16 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #29

roel_v wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"from property" In my Dutch town, there are churches that have been converted to hotels, a night club, several bicycle parkings, an award-winning bookshop that promptly went bankrupt, an indoor playground and a slew of restaurants. Others are just torn down. It seems the church has a preference for the last, but many of the expensive ones to maintain (i.e., the ones they want to get rid of first) are monuments and ha…

In the meantime, Poland is not only building lots of new churches, it even builds new cathedrals adorned in gold[0]. Even the little town I'm from(only 20k population) has 3 churches, and they are all full of gold and it's common knowledge that the local priests are most likely one of the wealthiest people around. [0]This was only finished in 2004, and is the most disgustingly oppulent building I have ever seen: http…

Don't worry. Too much opulence and political meddling will see some rando show up and nail a list of "suggestions" to the door of the place. Then the real fun begins.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#76

Post by bigYahnz » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 1:18 PM UTC

ykevinator wrote: post #46

baud147258 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point of why monasteries exist. The goal of a monastery is to provide a place where those who want to retreat from the world to spend their life praying; it's not for everyone. From my view point as a Catholic, the decline of monasteries is more linked to the decline of religion/religious practice than a matter of adaptation to the modern time: there's just less people who could be interest…

Plus there is growing consensus that God cannot exist.

God cannot exist. Everything that exists just popped into existence. Mmmmhhhhmmmm. More diversity, please!!

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#77

Post by Nasrudith » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 1:26 PM UTC

dschuetz wrote: post #15

Is there any possible modern approach to a traditional catholic monastery? I think, they are dying out, because of their rigid traditions which rarely make sense in our modern world anymore. The idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to introspection and philosophy, and serving the monastery with its inhabitants, no matter what religion or philosophy. Why are they having so much trouble to keep up wit…

I suspect it is the regimentation which is what truly killed them when combined with less rigid constraints on thought. There is still a substansial minority who would happily dedicate themselves to introspection and contemplation but they would prefer a space to follow their own guideance. Why bother with a life of thinking if the conclusions are already foregone?

The rigid scheduling is an artifact of agrarianism in a quad-seasoned climate and the calender as it becomes essential to have the time aligned. Likewise in the past not being a farmer itself was essentially a luxury - prison without slavery was only affordable if you had a hostage whose ransom was worth far more.

While before they may have been a refugee of sorts for those to devote themselves to study while being socially acceptable and self-supporting.

The time for reforms was a century or more ago during industrialization - if they would want survival over purity having known the peril coming. Now I suspect the options are either accept their demise as inevitable but take all latecomers, half-hearted reforms which likely will fail to stop the death spiral or a "Neomonastic" which fundamentally be an imitation of the past by the present out of its context or contains a glimmer of the spirit - such as a collective living of Catholics who may or may not have children, which pools funds to maintain a working class standard of lifestyle but may make more as a result of being composed of mainly college educated professionals such as doctors.

Theoretically there may be a Neomonastic sort of movement which emerges on its own in another sphere but if they didn't emerge on their own already why not?

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#78

Post by dschuetz » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 1:47 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #72

dschuetz wrote: post #15

Is there any possible modern approach to a traditional catholic monastery? I think, they are dying out, because of their rigid traditions which rarely make sense in our modern world anymore. The idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to introspection and philosophy, and serving the monastery with its inhabitants, no matter what religion or philosophy. Why are they having so much trouble to keep up wit…

> The idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to introspection and philosophy (...) no matter what religion or philosophy No, the idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to God, and specifically the God of a specific religion.

Well, there are Buddhist and Christian monasteries which I certainly know they exist. I'm sure that there are Muslim and Hindu monasteries also...

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#79

Post by Nasrudith » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 1:47 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #72

dschuetz wrote: post #15

Is there any possible modern approach to a traditional catholic monastery? I think, they are dying out, because of their rigid traditions which rarely make sense in our modern world anymore. The idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to introspection and philosophy, and serving the monastery with its inhabitants, no matter what religion or philosophy. Why are they having so much trouble to keep up wit…

> The idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to introspection and philosophy (...) no matter what religion or philosophy No, the idea of a monastery is to dedicate yourself completely to God, and specifically the God of a specific religion.

You are correct barring non-monotheism pendantry but there are multiple purposes including what was originally intended.

Another purpose was to dump awkward heirs and spares in a primogeniture inheritance - certainly not an offically endorsed one - akin to a butcher's knife being meant for livestock and their products.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#80

Post by lukebuehler » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 1:50 PM UTC

Great article, but I think it misses one key aspect of why monasteries are dying out: the lack of lively church communities which used to encourage dedicated people to join the monastic life. Monasteries don't exist in a vacuum, they have an intricate interdependency with normal parishes of families and, more generally, people "in the world." It should not really be the responsibility of monastics to do public relations to get people to choose this kind of life. A good example is the abbot from the article, he grew up a parish, was an altar server, etc., that made it possible for him to even conceive of this kind of life style--something that is just too big of a chasm for most non-church people nowadays.