Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

spiegel.de

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 171 posts

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#61

Post by pluma »

krychu wrote: post #43
gambiting wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Poland has a long and complicated history with the Catholic church. For a lot of people, the Catholic Church represented the only oasis of freedom during the communist rule after WW2 and before 1989, and can be credited with accelerating the end of communism in Poland, especially with a Polish pope being elected merely a decade earlier. Nowadays though I would call it what it is - it's cancer growing unchecke…

Church is also the community of people coming together, it’s nuns and priests going on missions to countries in need, it’s priests doing Sunday service for people who believe. Have you excluded these from your definition of Church or do you think these are also cancer?

That's religion, not church. Church is an institution. The Catholic church (and apparently particularly the Polish chapter of it) is rotten to its core. That there are good or oblivious people working for it doesn't invalidate that.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#62

Post by rambojazz »

hos234 wrote: post #3

As membership declines, just wondering what happens to all the cash the Churches are sitting on, from property, to art, to chuch tax collections. Going to be interesting to see what the next (younger) gen of church leaders do with it...maybe they need an innovation center to modernize the useful aspects of religion.

I hope at least all their physical properties (artworks, churches, monasteries, land) goes to the state and is used for social good.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#63

Post by hn23 »

rambojazz wrote: post #62
hos234 wrote: post #3

As membership declines, just wondering what happens to all the cash the Churches are sitting on, from property, to art, to chuch tax collections. Going to be interesting to see what the next (younger) gen of church leaders do with it...maybe they need an innovation center to modernize the useful aspects of religion.

I hope at least all their physical properties (artworks, churches, monasteries, land) goes to the state and is used for social good.

Ha ha ha. The church would not have lasted that long if...

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#64

Post by dagw »

pluma wrote: post #61
krychu wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Church is also the community of people coming together, it’s nuns and priests going on missions to countries in need, it’s priests doing Sunday service for people who believe. Have you excluded these from your definition of Church or do you think these are also cancer?

That's religion, not church. Church is an institution. The Catholic church (and apparently particularly the Polish chapter of it) is rotten to its core. That there are good or oblivious people working for it doesn't invalidate that.

There is also the important distinction between a church and The Church. The Church (which I agree is rotten) has very little to do with the day to day running of any given church. We're almost at a point where individual churches are trying to isolate themselves from The Church.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#65

Post by dr_dshiv »

cyxxon wrote: post #59
dr_dshiv wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I try to convert you? Great! Thanks for your implied consent. Here goes: The "One" god of Christianity comes more from Neoplatonism than Judaism. The Neoplatonic Oneness, which was washed out in various times in Christian history, is fully commensurable with contemporary science. Oneness can be experienced as the common mystical experience of "we are all one, man!" But for Neoplatonists, it only made sense that t…

As an atheist, I really liked your comment, and yes, I am more open to what you wrote, but... I am not one bit more open towards the Religion, because that is as far removed from what you wrote here as it is possible, I think.

Nice! Success. I too am an atheist of person gods. This ineffable oneness of the universe, though... It's got me intrigued. It's not a person. It's like, I'd imagine that most alien civilisations would have at some point a spiritual belief system aligned to it. And, I'd argue that it hits at the core of Christianity -- and holds some hope for its future. Like, wouldn't it be nice if Christianity could somehow evolve?

It's not hard, either. They just have to reject the idea that the Bible was written by God, which is farcical on the face of it. Then religion is about allegory, cultural traditions and having something to do with your kids on Sunday morning.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#66

Post by conjectures »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #47
ykevinator wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus there is growing consensus that God cannot exist.

Why address such a comment to someone who has made clear they believe in the existence of God? There is no reason to provoke peoples' religious beliefs.

Surely because the thread is about people wondering, 'why are monasteries declining?'

A substantial reduction in religious belief could explain away a large part of monastic decline.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#67

Post by admiral_biatch »

gambiting wrote: post #29
roel_v wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"from property" In my Dutch town, there are churches that have been converted to hotels, a night club, several bicycle parkings, an award-winning bookshop that promptly went bankrupt, an indoor playground and a slew of restaurants. Others are just torn down. It seems the church has a preference for the last, but many of the expensive ones to maintain (i.e., the ones they want to get rid of first) are monuments and ha…

In the meantime, Poland is not only building lots of new churches, it even builds new cathedrals adorned in gold[0]. Even the little town I'm from(only 20k population) has 3 churches, and they are all full of gold and it's common knowledge that the local priests are most likely one of the wealthiest people around. [0]This was only finished in 2004, and is the most disgustingly oppulent building I have ever seen: http…

> You'd think all of this would turn people away from the church, but it doesn't seem that way

It does. Poland is one of the most rapidly secularizing countries in the world according to Pew.[1]

Also mass attendance is at the lowest point since 1980 (36% of Catholics attend mass) [2]

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/9l3q03/polands_yout...

[2] https://natemat.pl/226659,tak-zle-z-kosciolem-w-polsce-jeszc...

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#68

Post by krychu »

pluma wrote: post #61
krychu wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Church is also the community of people coming together, it’s nuns and priests going on missions to countries in need, it’s priests doing Sunday service for people who believe. Have you excluded these from your definition of Church or do you think these are also cancer?

That's religion, not church. Church is an institution. The Catholic church (and apparently particularly the Polish chapter of it) is rotten to its core. That there are good or oblivious people working for it doesn't invalidate that.

This is incorrect. Its original meaning is "assembly", "meeting" and refers to a group of people more than a building/denomination/organization: https://www.compellingtruth.org/definition-church.html.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#69

Post by goto11 »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #49
ykevinator wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus there is growing consensus that God cannot exist.

Can I try to convert you? Great! Thanks for your implied consent. Here goes: The "One" god of Christianity comes more from Neoplatonism than Judaism. The Neoplatonic Oneness, which was washed out in various times in Christian history, is fully commensurable with contemporary science. Oneness can be experienced as the common mystical experience of "we are all one, man!" But for Neoplatonists, it only made sense that t…

There is something of a bait-and-switch when you segue from neoplatonic "oneness" to Christianity. The concept of "oneness" is vague enough that it cannot be in opposition to science, since it doesn't describe anything consequential or observable. It is basically a feel-good phrase, which is of course perfectly fine.

But Christianity implies certain ideas which are absolutely consequential, primarily that a certain historical person was the "Son of God" and that he literally rose from the dead. The idea that a single specific person could be God or the Son of God (as opposed to everybody else) is in direct opposition to any reasonable idea of God as "oneness".

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#70

Post by dr_dshiv »

goto11 wrote: post #69
dr_dshiv wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I try to convert you? Great! Thanks for your implied consent. Here goes: The "One" god of Christianity comes more from Neoplatonism than Judaism. The Neoplatonic Oneness, which was washed out in various times in Christian history, is fully commensurable with contemporary science. Oneness can be experienced as the common mystical experience of "we are all one, man!" But for Neoplatonists, it only made sense that t…

There is something of a bait-and-switch when you segue from neoplatonic "oneness" to Christianity. The concept of "oneness" is vague enough that it cannot be in opposition to science, since it doesn't describe anything consequential or observable. It is basically a feel-good phrase, which is of course perfectly fine. But Christianity implies certain ideas which are absolutely consequential, primarily that a certain h…

Right. "Oneness" does feel good, doesn't it? It's not unmeaningful, either. It is the "perennial philosophy".

But you are right, there is a bait-and-switch. I don't claim to describe the beliefs of current Christians, but ancient Christians, often of the near-heretical type (Origen was never sainted for a reason). Just keep in mind that there is no source of truth in Christianity. That's what all the wars were about! And no one was "right."

Early church fathers described Jesus as the Incarnation of the Logos ("the word made flesh", in highly misleading English translations).

And, the logos worldview meant that everything was an emanation of the oneness. So the logos/jesus lives in all of us.

"Son of God"=emanation of the One. See that? That is what son of God originally meant! See Philo of Alexandria for his judaeo-greco depiction of the logos as son of God in 10BC.

Rising from the dead... born of a virgin... Well, those are classic tropes in mystery religions. Fine for allegorical purposes.

Post reply on HN