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Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

nytimes.com

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Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#42

Post by kazagistar »

whatshisface wrote: post #23
catacombs wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can't keep pretending this is still a Democracy when we have a completely unaccountable NSA/CIA/FBI that seems to repeatedly hide their mistakes and the dubious legality of their sources & methods behind the classification and national security walls. And people still call Snowden a traitor for revealing this kind of practice in 2013.

The claim that Snowden is a traitor is inseparable from the idea that the government and the people are separate entities, so that it's possible to betray one in service of the other. In that world Snowden would be a traitor to the US and everybody else at the NSA would be a traitor to the people. Obviously such a thing is only possible if democracy breaks down to the point where the government no longer expresses th…

While I think Snowden is a hero and whatnot, I think a black and white reasoning about being a traitor isn't particularly helpful. If anything, the concept of a traitor is a weak one, and shouldn't matter in discourse... it's not a harm or benefit in and of itself, and any celebration or punishment should rest on the extent of those harms and benefits themselves rather then some abstract and largely tribal concept like "traitor".

Maybe the NSA needs to be taken apart or heavily restructured, but this can be done without using their words or us vs them worldview.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#45

Post by bdamm »

kazagistar wrote: post #38
RonaldSchleifer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your reporting on this, even if it just seems to chronicle the ever accelerating deconstruction of the Constitution. Even if American Constitutionalists were able to walk back these types of clear abuses on the social compact that keeps peace by two steps, it will only be without realizing that five steps were taken towards the progress of disassembling the Constitution. An old, irrelevant, outdated doc…

I'm not sure how the constitution is remotely relevant here. It's clearly not protecting us from this in it's current state. If we want protections against secret government gag orders, we have to vote for people who will oppose them, which is a really small number of people indeed, or else vote to change the constitution to actually start protecting these rights. And if this turns out to be impossible, what is at fa…

You're right. Discussing the shortcomings of the constitution is sort of viewed as a faux pax in American society, but the fact is that the current government, including its weaknesses, is an outcome of it. Discussions of how it could be improved, particularly given the almost 250 years of data we have, should be welcome.

Another strongly American social phenomenon is viewing the government as an intrusive enemy. The result is this kind of wish that the government would just go away and I think a lot of Americans think that if we could just somehow suffocate the government then the problems that it presents would vanish. The reality, of course, is not even remotely that way. Government is a tool that the powerful will continue to use to clobber each other.

It seems hopeless, but we at least need to talk about how the government can be improved, including its fundamental structures.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#47

Post by whatshisface »

kazagistar wrote: post #42
whatshisface wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim that Snowden is a traitor is inseparable from the idea that the government and the people are separate entities, so that it's possible to betray one in service of the other. In that world Snowden would be a traitor to the US and everybody else at the NSA would be a traitor to the people. Obviously such a thing is only possible if democracy breaks down to the point where the government no longer expresses th…

While I think Snowden is a hero and whatnot, I think a black and white reasoning about being a traitor isn't particularly helpful. If anything, the concept of a traitor is a weak one, and shouldn't matter in discourse... it's not a harm or benefit in and of itself, and any celebration or punishment should rest on the extent of those harms and benefits themselves rather then some abstract and largely tribal concept li…

That's kind of my point, the concept of "traitor" for Snowden only exists in the us-vs-them view, which is even more radically anti-government than the moderate view. So this makes it very ironic when government officials advocate for the radical anti-government view unknowingly.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#48

Post by turk73 »

bdamm wrote: post #45
kazagistar wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how the constitution is remotely relevant here. It's clearly not protecting us from this in it's current state. If we want protections against secret government gag orders, we have to vote for people who will oppose them, which is a really small number of people indeed, or else vote to change the constitution to actually start protecting these rights. And if this turns out to be impossible, what is at fa…

You're right. Discussing the shortcomings of the constitution is sort of viewed as a faux pax in American society, but the fact is that the current government, including its weaknesses, is an outcome of it. Discussions of how it could be improved, particularly given the almost 250 years of data we have, should be welcome. Another strongly American social phenomenon is viewing the government as an intrusive enemy. The…

You all still think we have rights, but I'm of the mind that technology and corporatism have erased all of it. All. Of. It.

There won't be any peaceful resolution to the situation, same as there wasn't when the King of England ignored our grievances that time.

People won't revolt until they're good and miserable--hungry, homeless, with nothing left to lose.

Right now, those types are being "managed" by homelessness, suicide, as well as opioids, marijuana, alcohol, video games, and other distractions. But that won't last forever, either.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#50

Post by turk73 »

burtonator wrote: post #10
situational87 wrote: post #2

We can't keep pretending this is still a Democracy when we have a completely unaccountable NSA/CIA/FBI that seems to repeatedly hide their mistakes and the dubious legality of their sources & methods behind the classification and national security walls.

It's still a democracy, just a very sick one. The United States is like a 243-year-old engine with a desperate need of an oil change. That oil is us... ...ok. Horrible metaphor but you get it. Not calling you out just saying just don't let cynicism take hold. Remember, we pushed Bush out and he was a war criminal.

The Bush family is literally the Deep State--Papa Bush (the one that recently died) was CIA Diretor. His father (?) was involved in a plot to overthrow FDR.
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