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The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

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Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#131

Post by wvenable »

agumonkey wrote: post #98
wvenable wrote: post #29

I feel like there is an article a week about how open source developers are being used by corporations for free labor. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding that these journalists aren't grasping. Nobody is doing anything they don't want to do. Nobody is forced to build open source software. And, most importantly, most of these contributions aren't worth enough individually to charge for. It's only collecti…

There's an issue though. You spend time as you please and its fine, but ultimately current society revolves on exchanging services in a semi quantifiable manner (transactions at price). You cannot live on free contributions. I find this hybrid situation too paradoxical.

There is no shortage of businesses and individuals that will pay you to write software!

What you're saying is that someone who might enjoy gardening as a hobby should be able to make a living mowing other people's lawns for free. Which is, of course, as ridiculous as expecting to make a living on free software contributions.

We already have a perfectly good system for exchanging goods and services for money. Free software is not that system and that is fine. The issue comes from misunderstanding what that system is and how it compares to basic capitalism.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#132

Post by muglug »

jackcosgrove wrote: post #35
muglug wrote: post #9

The overarching problem with expecting companies to pay for open-source is that they don’t have to. It’s often as vital to them as the publicly-provided infrastructure used by their employees to get to work, but because they never see the costs, they assume there isn’t any. In an ideal world business-critical FOSS projects would be funded by the government the same way that other public infrastructure is. Until that…

I understand the sentiment. However 1. Money corrupts everything. Be careful what you wish for. 2. Lone developers will probably do a better job than any sort of bureaucracy, public or private. Small-scale FOSS projects are the perfect platform for a lone developer. They can of course demand payment for their efforts, with all that it might entail regarding point 1.

> Small-scale FOSS projects are the perfect platform for a lone developer

Perfect platform in what sense? A perfect platform for burnout when the project becomes too popular?

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#133

Post by seph-reed »

joshlemer wrote: post #89

Some other commenters in this thread have pointed out that nobody is forcing open source developers to work on the contributions that they make, and that is strictly speaking true. But in the culture of software development, there does seem to be an ambient message often repeated or hinted at, that it is good to "give back" to open source by contributing and that it is virtuous to do so. I now am starting to rethink…

Open source or not, the big companies will always win. The only real difference is that as a whole society would slow down and be worse off without open source. Either way, it'll be equally unfair.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#134

Post by brlewis »

joshlemer wrote: post #89

Some other commenters in this thread have pointed out that nobody is forcing open source developers to work on the contributions that they make, and that is strictly speaking true. But in the culture of software development, there does seem to be an ambient message often repeated or hinted at, that it is good to "give back" to open source by contributing and that it is virtuous to do so. I now am starting to rethink…

There's a problem with this perspective. I have an insight that would help you see the picture more accurately. I would share it, but here on HN people from profit-making corporations could also see it and benefit, so just ask me in person next time you see me.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#135

Post by snek »

Liquix wrote: post #121
joshlemer wrote: post #89

Some other commenters in this thread have pointed out that nobody is forcing open source developers to work on the contributions that they make, and that is strictly speaking true. But in the culture of software development, there does seem to be an ambient message often repeated or hinted at, that it is good to "give back" to open source by contributing and that it is virtuous to do so. I now am starting to rethink…

Traditionally, OSS contributions are selfless labors of love and curiosity. These people are flexing their intellect and creativity doing something they thoroughly enjoy: solving problems in the most elegant way possible. Code is shared with an air of positivity, camaraderie, and we're-all-building-this-together. At the risk of sounding kitschy, it's this sense of collaboration that enables the open source community…

It's generally not a problem until the big companies start asking for features, asking for bugs to be fixed, etc., expecting anything more than what the maintainers choose to donate. If someone from Amazon reports a bug it's kind of scary, you feel like you've broken Amazon. You might even try to set aside time you weren't planning to set aside. It's hard to remember/enforce that you don't owe them that time (especially if they're nice).

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#136

Post by groestl »

_ZeD_ wrote: post #100
joshlemer wrote: post #89

Some other commenters in this thread have pointed out that nobody is forcing open source developers to work on the contributions that they make, and that is strictly speaking true. But in the culture of software development, there does seem to be an ambient message often repeated or hinted at, that it is good to "give back" to open source by contributing and that it is virtuous to do so. I now am starting to rethink…

this is the core reason for free software

This. I use permissive licenses mostly, but if you're disgruntled about companies ripping off your work without ever giving back, it could be that you've used the wrong license.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#137

Post by jeffFrom18F »

volkk wrote: post #101
joshlemer wrote: post #89

Some other commenters in this thread have pointed out that nobody is forcing open source developers to work on the contributions that they make, and that is strictly speaking true. But in the culture of software development, there does seem to be an ambient message often repeated or hinted at, that it is good to "give back" to open source by contributing and that it is virtuous to do so. I now am starting to rethink…

all good points. i also think what really pushes a lot of developers to do open source, and bear with me for the unpopular opinion--is ego. they love having followers, and a voice on twitter with some open source badge on their profile page. it's in a way a status symbol of "i did this important thing that a lot of people rely on, im pretty important." i highly doubt that even 5% of contributors are doing it out of t…

For me, it's the somewhat selfish but defensible idea that open source is a good way to get experience with technologies that I don't get to use in my day job. I get some amount of pride in seeing my name in release notes etc but that is about it, I don't do Twitter, don't have followers, and am not high-profile in any way.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#138

Post by jquery »

joshlemer wrote: post #89

Some other commenters in this thread have pointed out that nobody is forcing open source developers to work on the contributions that they make, and that is strictly speaking true. But in the culture of software development, there does seem to be an ambient message often repeated or hinted at, that it is good to "give back" to open source by contributing and that it is virtuous to do so. I now am starting to rethink…

A better way to look at OSS is like charity. Giving to charity is not something you do to enrich yourself, although you will likely enrich yourself in certain ways. You don't give to charity so you can get a better job in the future. And the results of giving to a charity might result in profits for corporations: suppose the charity makes a breakthrough in medicine and a large medical research company uses that to leapfrog their R&D. That's a feature, not a bug. We shouldn't discourage people from giving to charity because of these aspects.

It's worth noting that many of these companies give back to the OSS they leveraged, and are often the genesis of some of the best OSS software themselves.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#140

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

zulln wrote: post #71
wslh wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A rational actor never works for "free" A rational actor with emotions can work for free is that work makes him/her feel well. Some people even call this a hobby.

That would fall under "perceived benefit" and thus not free, according to the parent's definition.

The joy of a "rational actor" is that their utility function can be anything, and therefore their "rational" behavior can be anything - including things that an outside observer would consider irrational:)
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