The Internet Relies on People Working for Free • Hacker News Board

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#21

Post by Gpetrium » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:02 PM UTC

lysium wrote: post #2

It’s a well written article. I did not get the point where the internet relies on people working for free. Yes, free software such as curl is in use, but where does the internet rely on it? If there were no curl, there would be something else, wouldn’t it?

What would the world look like if all volunteering stopped? Would society have reached the point it is today? Volunteer encompasses all kinds of areas, including software and research. It can be argued that some segments would be covered by for-profit organizations, but decisions in this area is often driven by the return on investment (ROI). This means that some solutions would likely be paid or not pass the potential ROI test. If it became paid, it would likely be a barriers of entries to a lot of people, leading to slower integration and growth of the platform, software, etc.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#22

Post by cesarb » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:03 PM UTC

Y_Y wrote: post #5

A rational actor never works for "free", they derive some perceived benefit (not necessarily money) from their action, like reputation or self-satisfaction or warm fuzzies. I think it's brilliant that we can use these carrots to get good work out of people that can be shared on the internet. All the same that's no excuse to abuse people who are acting far from rationally.

> they derive some perceived benefit (not necessarily money) from their action, like reputation or self-satisfaction or warm fuzzies

You forgot what is perhaps the most important one: using the resulting software. For instance, when Linus wrote git, it was because he wanted a source control system with certain characteristics for himself to use.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#23

Post by dnh44 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:04 PM UTC

lysium wrote: post #2

It’s a well written article. I did not get the point where the internet relies on people working for free. Yes, free software such as curl is in use, but where does the internet rely on it? If there were no curl, there would be something else, wouldn’t it?

And if that replacement were not free then the costs would have to be passed on.

There is a tremendous amount of free software that runs the worlds infrastructure.

Programming languages, compilers, libraries, frameworks, text editors, databases, operating systems, utilities, servers, encryption, and even curl all lower the price of entry for everyone to contribute and innovate, even when they’re using free tools for commercial purposes.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#24

Post by cheez » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:07 PM UTC

user_50123890 wrote: post #4

Not just open-source maintainers but also moderators. A bad thing about moderators is that nowadays they tend to be immature teens, it's one of the reasons Reddit content quality has been going down in the past few years. It also creates some moral questions, as companies with giant revenues are outsourcing their internet janitor duties to naive unpaid child labourers

Edit: very interesting that this post is getting downvoted. I didn't even say anything controversial, just that banning people is bad. Exactly the danger we face online, which will eventually get into broader society.

I got banned on a platform for saying a public figure was physically attractive to me. Prior to that, I had engaged in a perfectly factual discussion about certain statistics that were in favor of a particular political position. There is no doubt in my mind that I was flagged for having a political position (to clarify: I didn't actually have the position, I was just posting statistics that supported that position).

I like HN's approach to moderation. You don't ban the person unless they are really unreasonable. You flag the comment, disappear it from the thread and tell them to behave. I also like Gab's approach which is: if it's not illegal and you don't like it, then just block them from your feed.

The wholesale banning of people for single statements that are generally taken out of context is emblematic of cancel culture and it isn't surprising to me that "hacker news" is more nuanced and understands that people are not one statement or one act.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#25

Post by minikites » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

ptah wrote: post #16

Y_Y wrote: post #5

A rational actor never works for "free", they derive some perceived benefit (not necessarily money) from their action, like reputation or self-satisfaction or warm fuzzies. I think it's brilliant that we can use these carrots to get good work out of people that can be shared on the internet. All the same that's no excuse to abuse people who are acting far from rationally.

humans are not "rational actors"

Which explains a lot about how capitalism works out in the real world.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#26

Post by Avamander » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:09 PM UTC

Y_Y wrote: post #5

A rational actor never works for "free", they derive some perceived benefit (not necessarily money) from their action, like reputation or self-satisfaction or warm fuzzies. I think it's brilliant that we can use these carrots to get good work out of people that can be shared on the internet. All the same that's no excuse to abuse people who are acting far from rationally.

Yes, but once they get bored they move on, to the dismay of the community, if there's money involved however that would give the community more stability.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#27

Post by wslh » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:10 PM UTC

Y_Y wrote: post #5

A rational actor never works for "free", they derive some perceived benefit (not necessarily money) from their action, like reputation or self-satisfaction or warm fuzzies. I think it's brilliant that we can use these carrots to get good work out of people that can be shared on the internet. All the same that's no excuse to abuse people who are acting far from rationally.

> A rational actor never works for "free"

A rational actor with emotions can work for free is that work makes him/her feel well. Some people even call this a hobby.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#28

Post by rabidrat » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:11 PM UTC

chiefalchemist wrote: post #19

> "It’s still not clear that companies would be interested in such a contract. When Stenberg asked the company that needed him to fly to a different country to troubleshoot their problem to pay for one, they refused." The irony is, in not paying directly for suppirt they are paying indirectly with risk. Risk to product. Risk to brand. And perhaps in sone cases risk to life. It seems to me a new licence is in order. O…

"shame" is not a reasonable means of enforcing such a thing with big companies. People may feel shame, companies don't.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#29

Post by wvenable » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:11 PM UTC

I feel like there is an article a week about how open source developers are being used by corporations for free labor. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding that these journalists aren't grasping.

Nobody is doing anything they don't want to do. Nobody is forced to build open source software. And, most importantly, most of these contributions aren't worth enough individually to charge for. It's only collectively that these contributions have value and we all collectively benefit from it. And for-profit companies are part of that collective benefit but that doesn't mean money needs to be involved.

I'm working on an open source project right now -- I've put a lot of hours into it -- and it's cool but there is no way to build a profitable business from it. It's an end-user product, the small number of users will like it, and I just enjoyed building it. But I also don't want to make it business. I already have a job.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#30

Post by eropple » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

qudat wrote: post #18

"[...] people working for free." OSS is "free" in the sense that anyone can consume the content. It's not free labor though. Most of the time, the people building OSS are gaining clout and career progression as a result of their "free work." Companies end up paying for it.

I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of people building open source software, even very popular software, are not being paid for it and it offers little value for their careers.

Like most things, the top couple of percent are being used to project an upside that does not apply to everyone else.