France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra • Hacker News Board

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#801

Post by smsm42 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:01 AM UTC

Certhas wrote: post #687

smsm42 wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound like somebody tried to force you to trade in Libra and German government prevented it. But Libra is not money - unless you choose to trade in it and use it as medium of exchange, and nobody so far tried to make dealing with it involuntary. So what exactly German government saved you from?

It saved me from having to live in a world with an overly powerful, not democratically legitimized financial entity. Given the power cooperations already yield this is a _good thing_ in my view.

> It saved me from having to live in a world with an overly powerful, not democratically legitimized financial entity

You mean, besides about 100 or so banks and trans-national corporations, including Facebook itself, that already exist? But yes, surely banning one more cryptocurrency out of over 9000 already existing makes huge difference. Not.

> Given the power cooperations already yield this is a _good thing_ in my view.

You view seems to be "corporations have too much power, so any action that hurts any corporation, even if it doesn't change anything and does not improve situation in any way, is good". This is not a very sane approach to anything.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#802

Post by smsm42 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:06 AM UTC

daniel_iversen wrote: post #564

smsm42 wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of privately controlled currencies. Miles, points, certificates, game gold, etc. - they are all private currencies. Most of them aren't legal tender, but neither are cryptocurrencies. The only difference between facebook-coin and miles is that Facebook promises to encourage dealing in their coin and airline would frown on that. Not much difference otherwise. You have some tokens that you can exchange f…

> There are lots of privately controlled currencies. Miles, points, certificates, game gold, etc. Yes but these other currencies don’t have the possibility to be the most used and powerful currency for everything you do, and who knows what shape, direction and impact Libra will take/have over time once that Pandora’s box is opened!

> Yes but these other currencies don’t have the possibility to be the most used and powerful currency for everything you do

Why not? There's possibility that everybody would start flying around so much that United airlines miles would be so valuable that people would volunteer to be beaten up just to get a chance for getting some. This is a very remote possibility, but nothing in the laws of nature or laws of men preclude it, so it's a possibility. Facebook currency, which doesn't even exist, has roughly the same chance to match this description as United miles. But somehow United miles is fine but Facebook currency is Pandora's box. Note that Bitcoin is not pandora's box, Ethereum is not, Monero is not, 9000 cryptos that nobody can even count, let alone track, is not, but most white collar, buttoned down, corporate vanilla safe cryptocurrency that have ever been proposed, the most soft target, which would be the easiest thing in the world to track and regulate ever in crypto history - that one is the Pandora box! How does it even make a little bit of sense to you?

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#803

Post by smsm42 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:09 AM UTC

insulanus wrote: post #632

smsm42 wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of privately controlled currencies. Miles, points, certificates, game gold, etc. - they are all private currencies. Most of them aren't legal tender, but neither are cryptocurrencies. The only difference between facebook-coin and miles is that Facebook promises to encourage dealing in their coin and airline would frown on that. Not much difference otherwise. You have some tokens that you can exchange f…

> Facebook promises to encourage dealing in their coin and airline would frown on that. Not much difference otherwise. Not much difference except it is controlled by one of the most powerful, and richest companies on the planet, with the most data on everyone, ever compiled. That if you are a member, knows you likes, dislikes, politics, sexual preferences, entire social network, where you live, when you get home, whe…

In your exercise in sarcasm you did almost everything except one thing - you somehow forgot to point out where the difference is. Yes, Facebook has a lot of data. And so? How that makes Facebook issuing crypto-tokens dangerous? If you consider the data volume Facebook has a problem, what does this have to do with the currency?

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#804

Post by smsm42 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:14 AM UTC

afiori wrote: post #665

smsm42 wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of privately controlled currencies. Miles, points, certificates, game gold, etc. - they are all private currencies. Most of them aren't legal tender, but neither are cryptocurrencies. The only difference between facebook-coin and miles is that Facebook promises to encourage dealing in their coin and airline would frown on that. Not much difference otherwise. You have some tokens that you can exchange f…

The difference is that those other are not meant to be used as a money replacement. In Pokemon Go there are coins and they are nothing but points to spend in store. If I could transfer them to other player, become a certified shop that accept payment with them, or do any of the many other thing you can do with money that would be probably a legally grey area. (moreover I am not sure how you would tax such a currency)

> The difference is that those other are not meant to be used as a money replacement

That'd be a big surprise for me when I'll try to book my next flight with miles. I certainly thought they'd replace money.

> In Pokemon Go there are coins and they are nothing but points to spend in store.

That's literally definition of money - abstract points that you can spend in the store. Well, the definition of fiat money, to be precise, but we're not going back to gold doubloons anytime soon.

> that would be probably a legally grey area.

Transferring money to other person can certainly land you in legal gray area if it against the laws (money laundering, tax avoidance, fraud, etc.) So what's new here?

> (moreover I am not sure how you would tax such a currency)

The same way you tax any other goods. If you receive income, you are taxed on its value. You think if non-USD payments weren't taxed, nobody would have a bright idea to be paid is silver bullion? IRS is not stupid, you owe taxes on any income, and better believe it, if they don't know the exact value proving it to them will very soon become your problem, not theirs.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#805

Post by afiori » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 7:45 AM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #804

afiori wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that those other are not meant to be used as a money replacement. In Pokemon Go there are coins and they are nothing but points to spend in store. If I could transfer them to other player, become a certified shop that accept payment with them, or do any of the many other thing you can do with money that would be probably a legally grey area. (moreover I am not sure how you would tax such a currency)

> The difference is that those other are not meant to be used as a money replacement That'd be a big surprise for me when I'll try to book my next flight with miles. I certainly thought they'd replace money. > In Pokemon Go there are coins and they are nothing but points to spend in store. That's literally definition of money - abstract points that you can spend in the store. Well, the definition of fiat money, to be…

>> In Pokemon Go there are coins and they are nothing but points to spend in store.

>That's literally definition of money - abstract points that you can spend in the store.

Better move all my savings to pokécoins then, I am sure they can then be used for money replacement.

Jokes aside there are innumerable difference between real money and an in-game credit both from practical and legal viewpoint.

> That'd be a big surprise for me when I'll try to book my next flight with miles. I certainly thought they'd replace money.

Again credit with a company of a consortium is incomparable to money with a legal standing.

What libra tries to do here is to create a new worldwide concurrency that can in principle subsume most national currencies in the world (maybe except the dollar for technical reasons).

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#806

Post by lostjohnny » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 9:10 AM UTC

boring_twenties wrote: post #798

lostjohnny wrote: post #779

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the Nazis were a real thing that happened in the real world not because of inflation though. if you wanna be historically accurate.

I'm no historian, but it seems to me the hyperinflation of the Weimar Republic, and the resulting destruction of many Germans' life savings, were a big factor in why Hitler's rhetoric was appealing to many.

So we could say that one of the motivation of Hitler's rise to the power was the decision of Wilhelm II (Emperor of Germany) to entirely finance the first war by borrowing, that led to the hyperinflation.

No single event in history causes dramatic changes, everything is connected.

There was a process that brought nazis in power, and it wasn't the hyperinflation alone, there were a lot of different factors acting together, not last the example of Italian fascism from Mussolini and the idea of governing the masses by eliminating the opposition through violence and obtaining absolute power, while maintaining the illusion of a democracy.

The Night of the Long Knives is more important than the hyperinflation to understand the rise of nazism in Germany.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#807

Post by repolfx » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 11:42 AM UTC

dane-pgp wrote: post #749

repolfx wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The EU" means both the institutions and the whims of a handful of national leaders. Nothing about what it does has anything to do with the will of its people. Where is that even measured? The text of the Withdrawal Agreement was written by the Commission, which controls the negotiations. And by the way, none of the things the UK is being asked to agree to have been presented as requirements to other countries. The o…

> The British press, despite what you may believe, is mostly pro-EU. How are you measuring that, exactly? Here is a reasonably quantitative analysis: https://rightsinfo.org/app/uploads/2016/06/Screen-Shot-2016-... from this article: https://rightsinfo.org/brexit-five-lessons/ > Many Brits have concluded that about the EU all by themselves, based on the actual actions it's taken. I don't know how many Brits have reach…

I meant in the sense that most newspapers and media outlets are pro EU. Yes, the few that aren't have higher circulation. You can't easily disentangle cause and effect there though: do people read these papers because they feel they're presenting a more realistic view of the EU/the world, or do they decide what a realistic view is based on the papers they read?

It's also worth remembering that broadcast media is largely pro EU, even though it's theoretically meant to be neutral. I don't know many who really believe it is though.

At any rate, it's very easy to get news very slanted towards the EU in the UK if you want it. The fact that there's alternatives is different to in most of Europe, I've noticed, where the media is near universally pro EU and anti-member state. At most in Germany the ECB gets criticised.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#808

Post by scoobyyabbadoo » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

lostjohnny wrote: post #777

erikpukinskis wrote: post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Assume good faith” doesn’t mean “ignore evidence of bad faith”.

let it go. HN mods are not here for justice, they'll never admit they are wrong.

>HN mods are not here for justice

Is the polite and free discussion of ideas not justice?

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#809

Post by scoobyyabbadoo » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

lostjohnny wrote: post #778

squiggleblaz wrote: post #770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect, and despite being completely off topic: > But I believe I am justified in that because whiteness is not an ethnicity, it is the practice of denial of ethnicity. I fundamentally do not understand what that means. Surely I don't have a choice but to be white? What am I denying? It's true that whiteness is not an ethnicity, since Russians and white Americans are surely ethnically distinct - more so, I thin…

> since Russians and white Americans are surely ethnically distinct Are you an anthroplogist? I bet not. Many white Americans have slavic blood just like russians.

>Many white Americans have slavic blood

Is whiteness a social construct or a genetic one?

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#810

Post by thefounder » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

kazen44 wrote: post #77

thefounder wrote: post #58

Ok but can we have a digital euro? I don't like facebook coins but something(digital money) is better than nothing.

we have digital euro's? the fact that it is a physical note or a database record does not matter for fiscal policy. ever used a digital system to transfer money? like ideal, bancontact or giropay or just plain SEPA?

I mean something like digital cash so that I can choose how I spend it and when I spend it without a bunch of terms & conditions