Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system • Hacker News Board

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#231

Post by dsfyu404ed » Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 10:44 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #219

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being able to use every bit of power the vehicle can put to the ground is going to be harder on parts than just mindlessly cutting throttle when wheel spin is detected. I'm fine with that trade-off if it means I can give my grocery getter traction control that's tuned for maintaining forward progress in low traction (like what most of the new Jeeps do if you set the dial to "rocks") as opposed to preventing wheel spi…

I don't know where you learned about traction control, but the normal way it operates is to apply the brakes on the wheel that's spinning so torque is redirected to the other wheel.

That's how it works in theory and did on some of the first generation systems. In practice most manufacturers cut throttle too (assuming throttle by wire, which most new vehicles have) and you often have to pay for some "off road" trim to get the little button that makes it not cut throttle. On a lot of AWD mom-mobiles you can't even get that option. Also, most traction control systems aren't tuned to hit the brake on the spinning wheel aggressively enough (IMO).

The Episode of Dirt Every Day where he takes a Jeep Compass off roading (it's on youtube somewhere) is a great example of what you can do with good traction control.

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#232

Post by JetSpiegel » Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 10:47 PM UTC

taneq wrote: post #225

bdamm wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a software guy I have to point out that often software "engineers" overbuild and abstract the wrong stuff, doing stupid things like making everything a layer. There is way more bad code written by professional software engineers than by EEs, who tend to be more results oriented.

I partly agree, but also, have you seen EE code (from EEs who are not also software devs)? It's not terrible in a "uses php instead of lambdas", it's terrible in a "absolutely zero consistency in variable naming, indentation, or in fact anything, also any comments will consist entirely of broken code or cryptic half-words." I deal with this stuff semi-regularly in my day job and wow.

I could live with all that crap, but what kills me is the unnecessary global state. Everywhere, particularly when it's not needed.

It's a complete nightmare to integrate with the rest of the application.

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#233

Post by JetSpiegel » Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 10:52 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #176

oblio wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of that, there's also this funny thing aspect: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Murray_Gell-Mann#Quotes_about_... > Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect works as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often,…

Well, you do know that the newspaper isn't written by a single person, but by a large team, so I guess the hope is that the journalists who wrote articles about far-off Palestine were more competent than the journalist trying to write an article about physics.

That "effect" is just Michael Chricton co-opting a Nobel laureate to one of his rants. It has nothing to do with Gell-Mann, the physicist.

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#234

Post by jankiehodgpodge » Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 10:58 PM UTC

mongol wrote: post #216

spanktheuser wrote: post #152

I'm also aware of a project from a major automotive supplier to attempt the same thing. From my understanding it's unlikely to succeed because manufacturers view suppliers as commodity producers of components they find boring like brakes, steering systems, sensors, transmissions, safety systems, fuel pumps, etc. Not as anything resembling a true partner. Not to mention that it would require competitors to collaborate…

> manufacturers view suppliers as commodity producers of components they find boring like brakes, steering systems, sensors, transmissions, safety systems, fuel pumps, etc Does a car manufacturer really find these things boring? Half are like the blood and oxygen of a car, and also includes some territory for unique selling points.

Look under the bonnet of any VW, Audi, Skoda etc, you'll find that all the sensors, valves, computers (and ECU software), filters and a large amount of the parts are made by Bosch.

It'd be interesting to know if they even had the skills in house to build a ICE car from scratch themselves. You can't knock it though, Bosch products tend to be excellent.

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#235

Post by fmntf » Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 11:03 PM UTC

breakingcups wrote: post #24

Iteresting. On the user-facing side I hope the choice for Android will mean GPL compliance and a way to sideload apps. Can't wait for a LineageOS variant for cars. My experience with user-facing Volkswagen software has been terrible so far, so I hope a new mandate might improve that area drastically. As far as the underlying new operating system Volkswagen is developing for all their cars, seems like a smart move as…

Despite I love to hack this kind of things, I really hope automakers will enable verified boot / secure boot / trustzone (or whatever the silicon provides). Having someone to remotely install malware on an ECU is scary.

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#236

Post by fmntf » Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 11:07 PM UTC

dx034 wrote: post #85

solidr53 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article mentions they will use Android as the base platform. > Senger also revealed that VW Group will be using Android for future versions of the MIB infotainment platform, in large part because of the robust third-party app ecosystem with that OS versus Linux. Huh? Android is running on a modified linux kernel. But I get what he means...

Android for the infotainment system, not necessarily the whole car. I'm not sure if they'll base everything off Android.

"You must update Play Services before turning on the engine".

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#237

Post by clouddrover » Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 11:32 PM UTC

spanktheuser wrote: post #152

I'm also aware of a project from a major automotive supplier to attempt the same thing. From my understanding it's unlikely to succeed because manufacturers view suppliers as commodity producers of components they find boring like brakes, steering systems, sensors, transmissions, safety systems, fuel pumps, etc. Not as anything resembling a true partner. Not to mention that it would require competitors to collaborate…

> VW is at stage 5.

No. Volkswagen is at the stage that four years after deciding to bet the company on going electric, deliveries of their new EVs based on their new EV platforms will start next year.

Their new software plan goes hand in hand with their EV push. Volkswagen is going to be the world's biggest producer of EVs because they're spending the most money to be it and they have the scale to execute it:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-electric-insig...

Your narrative doesn't match the reality.

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#238

Post by clouddrover » Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 11:58 PM UTC

AJ007 wrote: post #194

castratikron wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Legacy company announces that they'll bring a competing solution to market, promising investors that they'll produce a similar quality OS, but across 39 models, uniting 457 separate component suppliers AND the entire post-purchase product support infrastructure. They're starting today and promise to launch in 12 months. Yup. Sometimes the only way to make real progress is to burn it all down and start over.

The big red flag is when companies pre-announce products that will allegedly be released, long before they are real, but well past the due date they should have already been on the market. This whole thing also sounds a lot like VW’s electric vehicle promises. Why do they do this? Because executives pay is tied to stock price and lots of things can fall apart really fast if the companies cost of capital skyrockets.

> This whole thing also sounds a lot like VW’s electric vehicle promises.

How? In 2017 Volkswagen said they'll be delivering the ID.3 in 2020: https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/videos/...

In 2018 they said production of the ID.3 would start in November, 2019: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/volkswagen-id-electric-ca...

Series production will start in November, 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB5AyAAytZc

They are delivering the ID.3 in 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ex28SVZXW0

Volkswagen is meeting the targets they set for the ID.3 three years ago.

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#239

Post by favorited » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:05 AM UTC

clouddrover wrote: post #237

spanktheuser wrote: post #152

I'm also aware of a project from a major automotive supplier to attempt the same thing. From my understanding it's unlikely to succeed because manufacturers view suppliers as commodity producers of components they find boring like brakes, steering systems, sensors, transmissions, safety systems, fuel pumps, etc. Not as anything resembling a true partner. Not to mention that it would require competitors to collaborate…

> VW is at stage 5. No. Volkswagen is at the stage that four years after deciding to bet the company on going electric, deliveries of their new EVs based on their new EV platforms will start next year. Their new software plan goes hand in hand with their EV push. Volkswagen is going to be the world's biggest producer of EVs because they're spending the most money to be it and they have the scale to execute it: https:…

Meanwhile there's lots of their old EV platform cars in the Bay Area. I see e-Golfs everywhere (not as many Audi e-trons though).

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#240

Post by taneq » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:46 AM UTC

JetSpiegel wrote: post #232

taneq wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I partly agree, but also, have you seen EE code (from EEs who are not also software devs)? It's not terrible in a "uses php instead of lambdas", it's terrible in a "absolutely zero consistency in variable naming, indentation, or in fact anything, also any comments will consist entirely of broken code or cryptic half-words." I deal with this stuff semi-regularly in my day job and wow.

I could live with all that crap, but what kills me is the unnecessary global state. Everywhere, particularly when it's not needed. It's a complete nightmare to integrate with the rest of the application.

Oh, yeah I forgot to mention the “global-first” memory management style. So scary.