Live data from Hacker News

Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

politico.com

301–310 of 346 posts

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any reason to believe that intelligence agencies are involved in the cases mentioned? Why would they? Please cite. Former workers are sometimes just that.

Can you provide me with any reason to believe intelligence agencies don't use contractors, or don't use contractors who used to work for the agency in question? I doubt it.

I have not said that intelligence agencies don't use contractors.

You claimed that Israel's agencies had something to do with what the article above is discussing.

You should provide evidence.

(and no. The fact that former intelligence workers have roles in a related private company is not evidence of the country's involvement. Many companies employ or are managed by former intelligence workers. If you think they're all controlled by the Israel Mossad you should probably stop using firewalls/routers/CPU chipsets. Good luck)

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#302
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am staunchly opposed to national borders. I don't think it's right to discriminate against people for where they are born. National borders are not about "discriminating against people for where they are born", anymore than your family house discriminates against people based on which family they were born into. One would assume you don't just let anyone in your house, or feed everybody just like you do your chil…

> National borders are not about "discriminating against people for where they are born" They might not be about that, but they do that. Why do I deserve good healthcare, food, housing and a great quality of life and someone born in Syria doesn't?

>Why do I deserve good healthcare, food, housing and a great quality of life and someone born in Syria doesn't?

For the same reason your spouse "deserves" sitting on the couch you got at home eating something from the fridge and somebody you don't know outside doesn't, and you don't consider it much of a discrimination.

Because e.g. it's your house, you've built it (a nation is something people build, over centuries and generations, often with huge sacrifices, not something they merely rent), you've stocked it, you paid the taxes for it, etc. And you might, or might not, accept someone in it.

Why doesn't the same-nation homeless person outside "deserve" good healthcare, food, housing? Why not fix their situation before you solve that of "someone born in Syria"?

Probably because the latter just seems of no cost (just let them in), whereas the other one understands that involves some sacrifices (share income, increased taxes for social welfare, etc, etc).

And for a large (land-wise) nation state, like the US, with tons of recent 1-2-3 generation immigrants, many people tend to think it's inexhaustible and can accommodate everybody with no problem. And new/newish (1/2nd gen) immigrants now citizens wont understand whats the big claim of those whose ancestors built it over time, sacrifices to sustain it, etc anyway. After all they came there when it was already prospering. It's more like a hotel to them. This is quite more obvious in a more historical country with more homogenous population, which lived there and built it over many centuries or millennia.

And yet, one of the reasons the people several generations ago built it (the nation state), was to have a place of their own, where they live as they see fit (because they were persecuted in their own places), and be able to deny access to it to others outside -- and occasionally invite whoever they like, as long as they play with their rules/laws.

Also, notice how the direction is one way? Not many Americans want to go to Syria or Nigeria or Lagos or whatever. Seems people, ideologies, bad history, etc can screw up a nation state and its prospects, so they're not all interchangeable. That's part of what makes having a good nation state valuable, and wanting to maintain it that way (and not just make every country an open borders free-for-all).

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#303
post #285
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because your predecessors worked to build that for you and their fellow people. Why do you think parents pay for their children's education. Why do you think many don't just provide the minimum, but instead go beyond that? You did not do anything to get that. But your parents, their parents and those who came before them did, with the intention that you would.

I understand your arguments. I'm not discounting them. I am saying I don't agree with them. It sounds dangerously like when I was just out of college and I didn't understand why something in the company was done that way and I would get a response like, "Because that's the way it's always been done." Folks in Tuvalu are going to lose the entirety of their geographical boundary to the sea. I don't see why people shoul…

>I don't see why people should be kicked out of a country because they were born in another country

One good way to "get it" is to go try stay in their country, without following their due process to become a citizen, and see what happens.

A similar good way, is to go live in different countries for a while (try Syria too), and see what ideas some people have about running their countries, and consider whether you'd like people with such ideas to be a sizable minority or even majority in your country.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#304
post #52

No proof, no citations, no names. A lot of third person language. Anonymous "former officials". Great journalism right there!

On this kind of topic, those who know won't say if it's on the record. You're lucky for them to say when it's not on the record.

> "On this kind of topic, those who know won't say if it's on the record. You're lucky for them to say when it's not on the record."

Honest question:

Would WikiLeaks "work" if all we had was anonymous "former officials" making broad/general statements, providing no proof whatsoever?

What about Snowden's leaks? Imagine a really long article on Politico listing every single thing exposed in the Snowden docs, but without the names/documents/specifics. In a style very similar to what we have here in this Politico piece. Without us even knowing it was leaked by Snowden, but by some random "former NSA official".

Look, I'm not saying this Politico piece is right or wrong. All I'm saying is - this piece is making very big statements, backed by absolutely no proof whatsoever. And yet people are taking out the pitchforks... this isn't journalism, it's just spreading unsubstantiated FUD. And we should be discouraging this, not defending it.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private companies and Israel defense and intelligence agencies have deep ties, and the article shows. For instance: > Mossad Director Yossi Cohen told the paper that the Mossad’s partnership with civilian companies in Israel is “excellent” and that the agency will continue to strengthen those ties.

People have jobs, learn, keep ties, and move on to do what they know elsewhere. Talking about private sector, private contractor doing shaded activities for US clients is not the same as "Israel espionage". Israel is a country, does the article suggest evidence that Israel (or someone on its behalf ) have done any espionage in US? Qouting your comment from another thread: "The article is presenting a claim [you are,…

> does the article suggest evidence that Israel (or someone on its behalf) have done any espionage in US?

Yes it does, many times. I'd also suggest you read the series on Epstein in which MintPress unravels a deep web of crooked connections between Intelligence and wealthy individiuals. They also go through the Promis software scandal (backdoor installed by Israeli intelligence).

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#306
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel is a liberal democracy? Really, pretty sure its a Jewish state. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel would agree with me. Pretty sure this Jewish states has direct control over a couple million Muslims that are not allowed to vote.

> Really, pretty sure its a Jewish state. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel would agree with me. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel have made it illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement. But it's not accepted to point out that Israel is a distinctly illiberal state by it's overt, foundational policy.

Completely sure it is not "illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement."

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intelligence agencies should not be permitted to launder their accountability and reputation through private contractors. By that I mean, when they inevitably do it you should call it what it is, not play along with their convenient fiction.

Do you have any reason to believe that intelligence agencies are involved in the cases mentioned? Why would they? Please cite. Former workers are sometimes just that.

You really should look into the Promis scandal, on how historically Intelligence agencies have used shady private entities in order to avoid public scrutiny. It's very didatic.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#308
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"yellow journalism" was a major factor in swaying american public opinion into supporting a war with Spain. It's a very long standing problem. Not a recent development.

Ok....are you accusing Politico of yellow journalism? Have you changed your mind on the speculation issue?

I don't think my point can be made any more clearly.

People are misinterpreting the news. It seems like your position is to blame the news, and you seem to think this is a new issue.

My position is that this is an inherent factor in production and consumption of the news. Books like Manufacturing Consent, and The Condition of Postmodernity are important to understanding this view and the social processes that support it. A classic example is the reporting on the sinking of the Maine more than 100 years ago.

I don't think that forcing news agencies or social media companies to change is a real solution. The solution lies in improving people's ability to read news critically across all mediums and to understand the context of media and social conversation and how it subtly serves those in power.

Lastly, I don't agree with your characterization of very standard reporting practices as "presenting speculation as fact" and I've clearly explained why above.

This will be my last comment in the thread. Thanks for engaging.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Really, pretty sure its a Jewish state. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel would agree with me. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel have made it illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement. But it's not accepted to point out that Israel is a distinctly illiberal state by it's overt, foundational policy.

Completely sure it is not "illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement."

> Completely sure it not "illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement."

“A candidates' list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset, and a person shall not be a candidate for election to the Knesset, if the objects or actions of the list or the actions of the person, expressly or by implication, include one of the following:

“1. negation of the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state;

“2. incitement to racism;

“3. support of armed struggle, by a hostile state or a terrorist organization, against the State of Israel.”

https://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/basic2_eng.htm

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#310
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The No Borders belief is very idealistic. How does that work with state benefits like universal healthcare? And taxes? Yes it would be nice to be able to pick up and live/work anywhere but it's not as simple as one might think.

Why are nations geographical? Corporations are not bound by borders. You get benefits from your employer. You pay for insurance for the insurance benefits. If you don't work and don't pay taxes, you still get benefits from the govt just because you were born there. There's no need to earn anything. It's all just random chance and it seems very unfair to me that being citizen of a first world nation affords you a good…

> Imagine being trapped in a horrible situation with no freedom to escape.

If you look at the people who are traped like that, it's because their nation state failed.

They mostly want to migrate to places with strong nations states, why do you think that is ?

It's because strong nation states, can create good living conditions.

That said that doesn't mean many of us couldn't take a lot more immigrants than we currently do.

People tend to forget, the only guarantee that you are born with is that one day you will die.

Every other privilege, right or whatever you want to call it was fought for (often quite bloody ) and build by societies, and nation states are latest iteration of societies.

Is that fair? No. But that is life.

Post reply on HN