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Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

politico.com

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Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#221

Post by nickik »

kstenerud wrote: post #79
SuoDuanDao wrote: post #28

What does the US get out of the special relationship with Israel? Anti-Israel sources mostly talk about the strong Jewish lobbies, while pro-Israel sources mostly cite being the only democracy in the region. Both seem misleading at best. What's the US's argument from self-interest for tolerating this kind of thing?

Israel and Saudi Arabia are America's eyes and ears into the Middle East. It could have been any nation (indeed, America tried to get Iran as well, but was... less than successful). These kinds of relationships require a fair bit of quid pro quo, and of course for a country like Israel whose very national security depends upon a cozy relationship with America, it's perfectly understandable that they'd be spying on Am…

First of all, Israel and Saudi Arabia are the major sources of problems for the US. They US would need eyes and ears in the middle east if not for their relationship with these 2 countries.

The US spends billions on Israel itself, gives them more access then any other nation, they spend billions on paying of Egypt, the US lends international support on EVERY LEVEL, Israel was one of the primary drivers that got US into Iraq and tried their best (and they still are) to do the same with Iran. The relationship with Israel is one of the prime tools of propaganda for every single terrorist group in the Middle East. Israel is a rough stat that illegally acquired nuclear weapons and the list goes on and on.

9/11 was a direct caused by US the relationship with these nations. One of the main bombers prime motivation was revenge because of what Israel did in Lebanon, OBL own motivation was that US troupes should not be on Saudi soil (and that got him banned from Saudi Arabia). Because of the Saudi alliance Obama placated them by allowing a genocidal war in Yemen and people actually thought that is a reasonable thing to do. And I could go on about many more bad effects of this relationship.

Now I'm not saying these nations are uniquely evil and I'm not even saying the US should be allied with them in some way, but these relationships have grown far beyond what makes sense from the perspective of US population but not if you are in the political class.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#222

Post by nickik »

endtime wrote: post #50
SuoDuanDao wrote: post #28

What does the US get out of the special relationship with Israel? Anti-Israel sources mostly talk about the strong Jewish lobbies, while pro-Israel sources mostly cite being the only democracy in the region. Both seem misleading at best. What's the US's argument from self-interest for tolerating this kind of thing?

* An excuse to subsidize the US defence industry * Improvements to US military technology (Israel tweaks stuff and then we use their tweaks) * Anti-terrorism training and expertise (we started caring a lot more in 2001; they've been dealing with it longer than that) * A liberal democracy in a part of the world without any others (whether or not you value this is up to you, but many Americans do) * Intelligence * A lo…

Israel is a liberal democracy? Really, pretty sure its a Jewish state. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel would agree with me. Pretty sure this Jewish states has direct control over a couple million Muslims that are not allowed to vote.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#223

Post by dragonwriter »

nickik wrote: post #222
endtime wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* An excuse to subsidize the US defence industry * Improvements to US military technology (Israel tweaks stuff and then we use their tweaks) * Anti-terrorism training and expertise (we started caring a lot more in 2001; they've been dealing with it longer than that) * A liberal democracy in a part of the world without any others (whether or not you value this is up to you, but many Americans do) * Intelligence * A lo…

Israel is a liberal democracy? Really, pretty sure its a Jewish state. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel would agree with me. Pretty sure this Jewish states has direct control over a couple million Muslims that are not allowed to vote.

> Really, pretty sure its a Jewish state. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel would agree with me.

Pretty sure the leaders of Israel have made it illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement.

But it's not accepted to point out that Israel is a distinctly illiberal state by it's overt, foundational policy.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#224

Post by nickik »

flyinglizard wrote: post #160
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they conspicuously didn't until Pearl Harbor.

Saying that radical Islam would embrace USA’s existence without its support of Israel is delusional. USA stands against everything they believe in. It just reeks of appeasement.

You do realise that radical Islamist don't actually control any of the countries around Israel right? Or pretty much any country at all.

If anything US is allies with some worst ones in terms of supporting radical extremism.

But don't let facts get in the way of your propaganda.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#225

Post by smiddereens »

chimi wrote: post #174
scottlocklin wrote: post #162

It's not like the Israelis haven't done this before and not paid any consequences for it. 2000: https://www.wrmea.org/000-june/despite-coverup-israel-caught... 2015 caught greasing politicians: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-spy-net-on-israel-snares-co... 2011: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/us/08spy.html 2015: https://theintercept.com/2015/03/25/netanyahus-spying-denial... 2014: https://www.newsweek.com/israel…

Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Much of their spying on the USA is not to harm the USA, but to ensure the USA is still on their side. I don't think they want to hurt the USA, but I do think they would support an opponent of a politician that had been "heard" expressing a lack of interest in financial and military support for Israel.

Oh right, because they didn't develop nuclear weapons...

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#226

Post by remarkEon »

chimi wrote: post #185
remarkEon wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, their spying is justified because they need to know in advance if US politicians wouldn’t fully support a potential WWIII-esque intervention on their behalf, ostensibly so they could throw their own support behind a different US politician? And this is ... not viewed as insane by normal people?

I'm not justifying it. I'm explaining Israel's rationale for doing it. I am staunchly opposed to national borders. I don't think it's right to discriminate against people for where they are born. IMO, all human beings should be allowed to freely travel and work anywhere on planet earth. EDIT: Or outer space for that matter...

>I’m staunchly opposed to national borders...

Not sure what that has to do with this at all? It definitely sounds like bourgeoisie/boutique political signaling though. Only those with a certain level of privileges can make platitudes like that while the rest of us deal with the real world ... where borders clearly matter.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#227

Post by AnimalMuppet »

nickik wrote: post #224
flyinglizard wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that radical Islam would embrace USA’s existence without its support of Israel is delusional. USA stands against everything they believe in. It just reeks of appeasement.

You do realise that radical Islamist don't actually control any of the countries around Israel right? Or pretty much any country at all. If anything US is allies with some worst ones in terms of supporting radical extremism. But don't let facts get in the way of your propaganda.

There was a brief period when the Muslim Brotherhood controlled Egypt. Hezbullah controls a big chunk of southern Lebanon. Hamas controls Gaza. Maybe the facts are getting in the way of your point a little...

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#228

Post by dredmorbius »

lallysingh wrote: post #98
habnds wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citations in journalism is a really interesting thing. Unlike science, where at least in theory, everything is built from the ground up using first principles or built upon raw data collected, the "raw data" of journalism is just various types of conversations with people the journalist then has to verify, and gauge the reliability of. In other cases it's the journalists first person experience of an event. Citations…

I think the reporter is the key here. Something analogous to an H-Index for reporters' quality over time could work. How many times has their reporting been refuted? How many times cited? Etc. That could actually be something really big for news. Actual quantifiable credibility.

Keep in mind that reporting is very often inherently political or otherwise sensitive. Often complaints are signs of a reporter doing their job well, lack of complaints a sign of a hack.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#229

Post by yongjik »

flyinglizard wrote: post #160
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they conspicuously didn't until Pearl Harbor.

Saying that radical Islam would embrace USA’s existence without its support of Israel is delusional. USA stands against everything they believe in. It just reeks of appeasement.

> USA stands against everything they believe in.

Is this a euphemism for saying "Many of these people have relatives killed by America or one of its puppet governments"?

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#230

Post by scottlocklin »

colordrops wrote: post #220
chubasco wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it just me or does that sound an awful lot like a foreign government interfering in U.S. elections?

AIPAC is a much more overt and pernicious form of a foreign government interfering in US elections. They donate money to many US politicians, and actively setup campaigns against those they don't like, such as Ilhan Omar. It's far worse than anything Russia has ever done. And it's out in the open, so people somehow assume it's OK.

To be fair, a lot of Americans support AIPAC, either from ethnic solidarity, Christian dispensationalism, or just because they like Israelis. But they've certainly been involved in some shady stuff which should merit them being registered as Foreign Agents.

FWIIW the FARA act was passed in 1938 because of fascist and Nazi groups like the German American Bund interfering in US elections. Maybe as time goes by, AIPAC will become about as important in US politics as the German American Bund.

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