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Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

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Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holidays doesn't mean "travelling to another country in a plane" or "let's take a credit to tour Italy".

Quite true but if some can and some can’t the social class implications will be picked up on very fast, whether the reason is money or political connections.

People will find a way to separate themselves into classes no matter what. And those of higher class will separate themselves from the proles using any means available.

Even in Soviet Union the running joke was that all people are equal, but some people are more equal than others.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#232
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that someone could recognize the harm caused by droves of temporary visitors to a desirable area, yet not make the simple extrapolation of those effects to unlimited permanent resettlement. I think that weird feeling OP is talking about is the cognitive dissonance from recognizing in person the need to keep from being overrun by outsiders, yet having a blind spot over the solution because its negatio…

I think it's weird to recognize the harm caused by unlimited permanent resettlement, without recognizing the harm caused by the existence of problematic current residents. If we're going to start stack-ranking people based on how much harm they do where they live, quite a lot of locals in any particular area ought to be shown the boot. This is why anti-immigration rhetoric tends to explicitly avoid trying to quantify…

(Not the person you replied to btw)

> without recognizing the harm caused by the existence of problematic current residents

To be fair, this is a presumption though isn't it, whereas the matter of the harm caused by immigrants/visitors already exists within the context of this discussion.

> quite a lot of locals in any particular area ought to be shown the boot

If you have the option of booting people out, but how might that be done in the real world? It would be a violation of UN conventions would it not?

> This is why anti-immigration rhetoric tends to explicitly avoid trying to quantify the harm caused by immigrants

This seems a bit presumptuous as well. Speaking for myself, I hold the exact opposite view, what bothers me is a lack of quantification of the full effects of immigration. In my experience, anything that is quantified by governments or advocates is heavily slanted towards a pro-immigration conclusion.

> Most immigrants tend to work harder, be more educated, do less crime, etc, etc...

Indeed they do. As a result, if you live in a laid back country where people typically have a certain balance between leisure and work, and you have high immigration from cultures that optimize more towards the work end of the spectrum, it could have significant negative impacts on your quality of life and ability to afford your prior standard of living.

> If you tell me that it is morally wrong to let newcomers displace existing residents, I will point out that our society thinks it's perfectly reasonable for internal migrants to displace locals, when it comes to things like housing... Odd, that.

Again, it's presumptuous to assume that an individual holds the same belief as overall society, if overall society even holds that belief (how would we even know such a thing with any certainty?). There is certainly widespread negative sentiment of internal migrants displacing locals throughout the world, and I'd wager the people who hold this belief would also tend to be the ones who are most opposed to immigration, if so it would actually be logically consistent, so not really that odd after all. But once again, we have no way of knowing that with any certainty, as long as we continue to refuse to seriously study such things. If one looks closely, you might notice that all such arguments, on both sides, are largely based on people's imaginations, not facts.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low cost travel & tourism are _not_ rights. They're privileges. Seems fair to include negative externalities in the cost. If that excludes some people, so be it. They can travel closer to home.

And again: why should those privileges be reserved to the wealthy?

There are much more basic rights not being met across the globe before we can afford worrying about everybody having a yacht, a personal jet and close up time with Mona Lisa.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#234
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea it’s a funny word “overtourism”. I guess it’s what you call it when other people go on vacation (whereas when I go on vacation it’s just “tourism”). :P

If it's you, then it's a 'traveler' or a 'wonderlust'. The rest of the world are simply 'tourists'. It all comes down to the question "who do you think you are to block my path?" It's not a straightforward answer, though. We've been struggling to answer this as human beings since forever.

Indeed. This exact attitude was satirized in an A Bit of Fry & Laurie sketch waaaay back in 1990:

Hugh: Ah, yes well now you see, I have campaigned for years now to have tourists banned from Venice.

Stephen: Have you? Have you?

Hugh: I have, I have. It sounds very harsh, very cruel, very ...

Stephen: Deglante?

Hugh: Very deglante, thank you. But I'm sure it's the only way.

Leslie: Who was it, who was it, who said "He is a tourist, you are a holidaymaker, but I am a traveller?"

Hugh: Oh, was it Humbert Wolfe?

Stephen: It was Cocteau, surely?

... etc., etc...

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#236
post #55

Welcome to the world of, by some measures, "too many" people having too much disposable wealth. There are obviously worse problems to have. But overtourism is a problem that's only going to get worse. This even affects Mount Everest where people are literally dying just to say they stood at the top of the world. And Everest simply can't support the number of climbers now. You see this in US national parks where the o…

> "too many" people having too much disposable wealth. I don't think this is the problem at all. The world is huge. There are millions of tourist destinations and plenty of room for people in all of them. The problem is with distribution. Social media creates power law distributions of attention. There are a few pieces of writing I wish every human on Earth had read and this is one of them: http://shirky.com/writings…

That's a good point. But it's still the case that there are superstar locations that everybody wants to go to. Pulpit Rock, Sagrada Familia, just to name a couple of newly-popular ones. I think for these the solution is to encourage off-season travel. Basically to spread the currently summer-heavy distribution over the entire year.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#237

I think the answer is clear, if not a bit brutal: raise prices for tourists. Tourism is a luxury, not a right, and if there is a perceived negative externality to Norway from overtourism, it should be mitigated in the market. There will be fewer people who are willing to go to Trolltunga if they are not a Norwegian resident and the price of entry is $200. Sidenote: I lived in Norway for a few years, gorgeous place bu…

But an American travelling from the other side of the world emits a ton more CO2 than someone coming from Sweden, so just raising local prices don’t take into account the externalities.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#238
post #208

The problem is mass tourism, not tourists. I’ve lived I two of the biggest cruise destinations in Norway, and that kind of tourism is terrible. Hundreds of mostly middle aged and old people overflow the city for a few hours and spending next to nothing as their cruise is all inclusive. Maybe they will hop on a bus for a guided tour to see all the sights in two hours. All the while the cruise ship is alongside port sp…

Cruises need to die, they’re horrible for the environment and local economies.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And again: why should those privileges be reserved to the wealthy?

There are much more basic rights not being met across the globe before we can afford worrying about everybody having a yacht, a personal jet and close up time with Mona Lisa.

That's not answering the question.
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