Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism • Hacker News Board

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#201

Post by cromwellian » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:15 PM UTC

Travel tends to decrease xenophobia and increase empathy and cultural understanding among those who do it. I worry that some of the use of environmental impact is a "concern troll" cover to call for restrictions is the result of more deeply seated xenophobic feelings.

Tourism is increasing because billions of people have been lifted out of poverty, especially Chinese, and now they want to experience what those in the West have experienced for decades with their disposable income. Now that the formerly poor have the money to travel, I expect more people complaining about the tourists, e.g. a big bus of Chinese pulls up in a small town, some kid vandalizes something or some people leave trash, and a stereotype that "these people" trash the town emerges.

(I'd also say Americans don't travel enough, less than 1/3rd have traveled abroad, and some of this ignorance bolsters American exceptionalism, because until you see how bad shape your infrastructure is in, or how good healthcare, health, and public safety is in other countries, you have no context to be skeptical of some of the crazy political assertions thrown around)

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#202

Post by partiallypro » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:17 PM UTC

This is somewhat ironic because I am served ads to visit Norway constantly

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#203

Post by frereubu » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #185

frereubu wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Preemptive defensiveness" hits the nail on the head for me. It's most problematic when it's the first thing in a comment, and makes it difficult for me to take the rest of the comment seriously, no matter carefully worded it is. I find it easier to write off as chatty if it's later in the comment and / or more offhanded like "... although I know that's not exactly flavour of the month on HN." The fact that it comes…

The problem here is that ordinary people sometimes start deep conversations with phrases like "this isn't going to win me any friends, but..." or even "candidly:". It's natural to guideline out people (1) working the metaphorical refs with asides about voting and (2) posturing and, at the same time, implicitly disrespecting even the notion that some people might disagree with them. The former invites horrible meta co…

All good points. If I was able to write guidelines that clearly I'd be a happy person! But it does feel like it's a distinct kind of approach to comments that provokes people into responding and the comment thread starts to dominate other more interesting threads further down.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#204

Post by a3n » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

If they want to reduce over tourism in Norway, they could publish a list of "secret gems" in Finland. Sort of how Japanese banks would park money in competing banks because it cost money to hold it.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#205

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

lozaning wrote: post #158

kgwgk wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe "more" but restaurants catering to tourists are not usually "better".

Anecdotally, the Italian food one can find within a mile of the Colosseum is lower quality than what you'd get at any American Olive Garden.

This seems unlikely. I'd believe "One can find Italian food within a mile of the Coliseum of lower quality than..." but that's a different statement than the one you've made here.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#206

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

tgv wrote: post #154

el_cujo wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, it feels very weird to me seeing people advocate for basically only allowing the super rich to travel. To a lot of people, travelling abroad isn't just about getting drunk at foreign clubs and leaving trash everywhere, but about experiencing other cultures and having your world-view widened beyond what you see every day. I think most people would argue these things are good, not just for the individual but for…

So be it. Traveling everywhere every time you want isn't a human right. It's a luxury.

Wow I can't believe you mean this. This isn't even a slippery slope. This is a sheer precipice, with Trump and his racist pals grinning sardonically at the bottom. Humans who can't travel are not free.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#207

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:44 PM UTC

kjaftaedi wrote: post #182

bjornsing wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea it’s a funny word “overtourism”. I guess it’s what you call it when other people go on vacation (whereas when I go on vacation it’s just “tourism”). :P

Living Iceland, the increased amount of tourists means that everything can no longer be written in the local language so that the tourists can understand, and that when you go to a restaurant, you often can't even order food using icelandic as the staff won't understand you, walking down the street, everyone is speaking English to each other, things that used to be free and offered to the public, now have to come at…

...you often can't even order food using icelandic as the staff won't understand you...

One doubts that the restaurant staff are tourists? You seem to be saying that they aren't Icelandic, however.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#208

Post by Thlom » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:45 PM UTC

The problem is mass tourism, not tourists. I’ve lived I two of the biggest cruise destinations in Norway, and that kind of tourism is terrible. Hundreds of mostly middle aged and old people overflow the city for a few hours and spending next to nothing as their cruise is all inclusive. Maybe they will hop on a bus for a guided tour to see all the sights in two hours. All the while the cruise ship is alongside port spewing exhaust all over the city. This is not sustainable. I take 500 German motorhomes driving 20 km/h below the speed limit instead of a cruise ship.

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#209

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:46 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #116

baud147258 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You start passing bills on restricting tourism, then the natural next step is being hard on immigration, then Brexit It feels like a slippery slope argument.

A slippery slope argument is not necessarily wrong or poor rhetoric. It would help me understand if you would say why this is a poor use of slippery slope. Many relationships naturally follow along a curve so pointing out this relationship should be remarkable for being wrong if you pass along some other info like maybe you think this rarely occurs, or is not logical.

[deleted]

Re: Norway's Bold Plan to Tackle Overtourism

#210

Post by mistermann » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:46 PM UTC

homonculus1 wrote: post #164

mistermann wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You start passing bills on restricting tourism, then the natural next step is being hard on immigration, then Brexit. This is kind of an interesting comment if you overthink it, as I enjoy doing. By my reading, "then the natural next step is being hard on immigration" is a rather boldly axiomatic statement, as if being hard on immigration is _Wrong_, full stop. If others hold the opinion that ~open borders are a Go…

It's interesting that someone could recognize the harm caused by droves of temporary visitors to a desirable area, yet not make the simple extrapolation of those effects to unlimited permanent resettlement. I think that weird feeling OP is talking about is the cognitive dissonance from recognizing in person the need to keep from being overrun by outsiders, yet having a blind spot over the solution because its negatio…

> yet having a blind spot over the solution because its negation has already been accepted as a given due to social conformity

I agree, it seems to have become a fundamental axiomatic belief. My impression is that this change in thinking has spread very broadly (at least among vocal social media users) in a very short period of time, and it seems to be held in a very non-negotiable way, not subject to logical discussion.