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Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

politico.com

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Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#261

Post by yellowapple »

age_bronze wrote: post #196
chimi wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Much of their spying on the USA is not to harm the USA, but to ensure the USA is still on their side. I don't think they want to hurt the USA, but I do think they would support an opponent of a politician that had been "heard" expressing a lack of interest in financial and military support for Israel.

Let me get this straight: Israel risks pissing the U.S by spying on them, which can lead to them cutting ties with Israel, in order to make sure that US does not cut its ties with Israel. Would you risk spying on your girlfriend to make sure she wants to stay your girlfriend? This makes no sense.

> Would you risk spying on your girlfriend to make sure she wants to stay your girlfriend?

I mean, lots of people do exactly that. It ain't healthy to do, but they do it anyway.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#262

Post by sgregnt »

scottlocklin wrote: post #245
jdsully wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first link doesn't say they sold US secrets, just technology US firms weren't allowed to provide. They have an extensive domestic tech industry and due to their history quite a large defense industry as well. The second link is as advertised though - however the person responsible did resign (assuming it wasn't some broader conspiracy).

Actually the first link says " the Israeli exports include military technology developed by the US, and which Washington expressly forbids from being exported to China." Arguably the only reason they have a large defense industry is the billions of dollars the US gives them to subsidize it. Yet somehow those billions are never at risk when they do shady things like this. I could probably dig up a half dozen examples…

Your are clearly biased against Israel denaying this is like denaying the sky is blue.

Try running google search on exporting military technology hurts USA, substitute Britain with any other country. You'll be surprised. There are certain people who would just jump on any opportunity to paint Israel in a bad light and exaggerate any negative news. Many of your sources quoted in your first post are blatantly against Israel. Please, don't turn Hacker news into a platform promoting a certain political sentements.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#263

Post by chimi »

i_call_solo wrote: post #242
chimi wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not justifying it. I'm explaining Israel's rationale for doing it. I am staunchly opposed to national borders. I don't think it's right to discriminate against people for where they are born. IMO, all human beings should be allowed to freely travel and work anywhere on planet earth. EDIT: Or outer space for that matter...

The No Borders belief is very idealistic. How does that work with state benefits like universal healthcare? And taxes? Yes it would be nice to be able to pick up and live/work anywhere but it's not as simple as one might think.

Why are nations geographical? Corporations are not bound by borders. You get benefits from your employer. You pay for insurance for the insurance benefits. If you don't work and don't pay taxes, you still get benefits from the govt just because you were born there. There's no need to earn anything.

It's all just random chance and it seems very unfair to me that being citizen of a first world nation affords you a good quality of life, while someone born somewhere else has bombs going off outside and isn't allowed to leave.

Imagine being trapped in a horrible situation with no freedom to escape.

It's not right. Nation states are anachronistic at best.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#264

Post by philwelch »

remarkEon wrote: post #181
chimi wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Much of their spying on the USA is not to harm the USA, but to ensure the USA is still on their side. I don't think they want to hurt the USA, but I do think they would support an opponent of a politician that had been "heard" expressing a lack of interest in financial and military support for Israel.

So, their spying is justified because they need to know in advance if US politicians wouldn’t fully support a potential WWIII-esque intervention on their behalf, ostensibly so they could throw their own support behind a different US politician? And this is ... not viewed as insane by normal people?

Every country spies on every other country to the extent that they have both the capability and the vested interest in doing so. Most countries even spy on themselves, partially in order to figure out what other countries are spying on them. There are consequences if you get caught, but the first rule of spying is not to get caught.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#265

Post by coldtea »

chimi wrote: post #174
scottlocklin wrote: post #162

It's not like the Israelis haven't done this before and not paid any consequences for it. 2000: https://www.wrmea.org/000-june/despite-coverup-israel-caught... 2015 caught greasing politicians: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-spy-net-on-israel-snares-co... 2011: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/us/08spy.html 2015: https://theintercept.com/2015/03/25/netanyahus-spying-denial... 2014: https://www.newsweek.com/israel…

Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Much of their spying on the USA is not to harm the USA, but to ensure the USA is still on their side. I don't think they want to hurt the USA, but I do think they would support an opponent of a politician that had been "heard" expressing a lack of interest in financial and military support for Israel.

>Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Much of their spying on the USA is not to harm the USA, but to ensure the USA is still on their side.

Well, who said the USA being "on their side" is not harmful for the USA?

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#266

Post by coldtea »

sgregnt wrote: post #262
scottlocklin wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the first link says " the Israeli exports include military technology developed by the US, and which Washington expressly forbids from being exported to China." Arguably the only reason they have a large defense industry is the billions of dollars the US gives them to subsidize it. Yet somehow those billions are never at risk when they do shady things like this. I could probably dig up a half dozen examples…

Your are clearly biased against Israel denaying this is like denaying the sky is blue. Try running google search on exporting military technology hurts USA, substitute Britain with any other country. You'll be surprised. There are certain people who would just jump on any opportunity to paint Israel in a bad light and exaggerate any negative news. Many of your sources quoted in your first post are blatantly against I…

>Your are clearly biased against Israel denaying this is like denaying the sky is blue.

Oh, the irony

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#267

Post by bowcoy »

remarkEon wrote: post #181
chimi wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Much of their spying on the USA is not to harm the USA, but to ensure the USA is still on their side. I don't think they want to hurt the USA, but I do think they would support an opponent of a politician that had been "heard" expressing a lack of interest in financial and military support for Israel.

So, their spying is justified because they need to know in advance if US politicians wouldn’t fully support a potential WWIII-esque intervention on their behalf, ostensibly so they could throw their own support behind a different US politician? And this is ... not viewed as insane by normal people?

Obama/Kerry did the Iran nuclear talks and did not invite Israel. Israel deems it necessary for survival to know everything and all they can about Iran. So they (and other capable agencies) basically bugged an entire hotel.

> When the talks shifted to a luxury hotel in Vienna, the microwave radiation from the surveillance efforts of competing intelligence agencies was so intense that diplomats had to walk some distance from the venue to use their mobile phones.

The new US administration, like Israel, very much opposes the nuclear deal. Trump may give the Israelis a proverbial "wildcard" to deal with a certain problem in a private conversation with an advisor. Or he, or the new administration start to hold a more favorable view on an Iran deal. Israel needs to know this as a manner of their national security.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#268

Post by coldtea »

chimi wrote: post #185
remarkEon wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, their spying is justified because they need to know in advance if US politicians wouldn’t fully support a potential WWIII-esque intervention on their behalf, ostensibly so they could throw their own support behind a different US politician? And this is ... not viewed as insane by normal people?

I'm not justifying it. I'm explaining Israel's rationale for doing it. I am staunchly opposed to national borders. I don't think it's right to discriminate against people for where they are born. IMO, all human beings should be allowed to freely travel and work anywhere on planet earth. EDIT: Or outer space for that matter...

>I am staunchly opposed to national borders. I don't think it's right to discriminate against people for where they are born.

National borders are not about "discriminating against people for where they are born", anymore than your family house discriminates against people based on which family they were born into.

One would assume you don't just let anyone in your house, or feed everybody just like you do your children, or share your family assets with the whole neighborhood (even if it would be nice if you did, it, for one, would live less for you. Plus, not everybody is nice and altruistic, but most manage to be that towards their family).

People build a nation as a community, often fighting hard for it to exist (e.g. wars of independence), working hard to make it better, building it's culture, and so on. They have a right to want to preserve their preferred way of life, their culture, and the country/infrastructure/etc they have built (of course not everything is always harmonious inside a nation, the same way things are not all roses all the time inside a family. No human made thing is perfect - and no natural made thing, for that matter).

If nations did not exist, people should still have the right to invent them, that is, to create their own communities with people they share their living on a place, hardships and culture with, build their own thing, and protect it against people who don't share their values or haven't contributed to building them.

In fact nation states didn't exist in the far past, they are a development of enlightenment and modernity. We had empires, and feudal fiefdoms loyal to some remote king, and such before, and people literally struggled to break their pre-nation-state nations (ethnic, cultural and historical groups) free from them...

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#269

Post by cynoclast »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #207
partialrecall wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought this "they hate us for our freedoms" line of reasoning went out of style 15+ years ago.

Maybe it went out of style, but it's not entirely wrong...

Well they don't hate us "because of our freedoms" they hate us because we meddle in and around the countries, overthrow their governments and kill their citizens.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#270

Post by coldtea »

chimi wrote: post #263
i_call_solo wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The No Borders belief is very idealistic. How does that work with state benefits like universal healthcare? And taxes? Yes it would be nice to be able to pick up and live/work anywhere but it's not as simple as one might think.

Why are nations geographical? Corporations are not bound by borders. You get benefits from your employer. You pay for insurance for the insurance benefits. If you don't work and don't pay taxes, you still get benefits from the govt just because you were born there. There's no need to earn anything. It's all just random chance and it seems very unfair to me that being citizen of a first world nation affords you a good…

>Why are nations geographical?

The same way family houses are geographical. Because the people in them live on some place, cater for it, historically inherit it, and do as they please inside their own premises.

Nations are groups of people who grew in the same area, had gone through the same historical experiences (e.g. attacks, famines, wars, etc), worked together to make their place better, and built their culture and cultivated their ways of life over centuries, often making heavy sacrifices to free and keep their land...

>Corporations are not bound by borders

Corporations also don't belong to their "citizens" (employees) but to the few owners/shareholders, are not bound by democracy (they are despotic kingdoms internally), and only care for profit, and would "exile" (fire) any number of their "citizens" (employees) if the profits said so. So not the best example to base social paradigms on...

>It's not right. Nation states are anachronistic at best.

According to most scholars, the nation state is a product of enlightenment and modernity.

We had empires before.

And federal like unions, are just nation states minus the political autonomy (sovereignty), so decisions are made by some bureaucrats away from where it matters.

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