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Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

politico.com

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Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#241

Post by jdsully »

scottlocklin wrote: post #201
chimi wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Much of their spying on the USA is not to harm the USA, but to ensure the USA is still on their side. I don't think they want to hurt the USA, but I do think they would support an opponent of a politician that had been "heard" expressing a lack of interest in financial and military support for Israel.

Well, they regularly sell US secrets to China, so I don't think they really give two shits about "hurting the US." Examples: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/israel-accused-of-s... https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israe... I could be wrong! Maybe selling US secrets to china is to ensure the USA is still on their side? I'm not a politician; it's above my paygrade. Somehow other US allies…

Your first link doesn't say they sold US secrets, just technology US firms weren't allowed to provide. They have an extensive domestic tech industry and due to their history quite a large defense industry as well.

The second link is as advertised though - however the person responsible did resign (assuming it wasn't some broader conspiracy).

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#242

Post by i_call_solo »

chimi wrote: post #185
remarkEon wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, their spying is justified because they need to know in advance if US politicians wouldn’t fully support a potential WWIII-esque intervention on their behalf, ostensibly so they could throw their own support behind a different US politician? And this is ... not viewed as insane by normal people?

I'm not justifying it. I'm explaining Israel's rationale for doing it. I am staunchly opposed to national borders. I don't think it's right to discriminate against people for where they are born. IMO, all human beings should be allowed to freely travel and work anywhere on planet earth. EDIT: Or outer space for that matter...

The No Borders belief is very idealistic. How does that work with state benefits like universal healthcare? And taxes? Yes it would be nice to be able to pick up and live/work anywhere but it's not as simple as one might think.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#244

Post by alfiedotwtf »

Despegar wrote: post #194
remarkEon wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, their spying is justified because they need to know in advance if US politicians wouldn’t fully support a potential WWIII-esque intervention on their behalf, ostensibly so they could throw their own support behind a different US politician? And this is ... not viewed as insane by normal people?

>if US politicians wouldn’t fully support a potential WWIII-esque intervention It's amusing but that's not even the real concern. Israel, Iran, the US and the world all know perfectly well that there's no existential threat to Israel. The more immediate concern is as always Israel-Palestine issues. The multi-decade rightward shift in Israeli politics has culminated with the Trump administration, where they are trying…

> where they are trying to annex as much Palestinian land as possible

FIFY: where they are trying to annex as much Palestinian oil as possible

Genie Energy’s strategic advisors is the who’s who of your typical movie villains: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_Energy

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#245

Post by scottlocklin »

jdsully wrote: post #241
scottlocklin wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they regularly sell US secrets to China, so I don't think they really give two shits about "hurting the US." Examples: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/israel-accused-of-s... https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israe... I could be wrong! Maybe selling US secrets to china is to ensure the USA is still on their side? I'm not a politician; it's above my paygrade. Somehow other US allies…

Your first link doesn't say they sold US secrets, just technology US firms weren't allowed to provide. They have an extensive domestic tech industry and due to their history quite a large defense industry as well. The second link is as advertised though - however the person responsible did resign (assuming it wasn't some broader conspiracy).

Actually the first link says " the Israeli exports include military technology developed by the US, and which Washington expressly forbids from being exported to China." Arguably the only reason they have a large defense industry is the billions of dollars the US gives them to subsidize it. Yet somehow those billions are never at risk when they do shady things like this.

I could probably dig up a half dozen examples of this; I try not to pay attention to politics, but I am old and every time I hear this story again I figure we couldn't possibly have any secrets left for the Israelis to sell to China.

Heres one: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/175404

Moar examples: https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2014/06/06/how-israel-h...

Denying this is kind of like denying the sky is blue.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#248

Post by drak0n1c »

dragonwriter wrote: post #223
nickik wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel is a liberal democracy? Really, pretty sure its a Jewish state. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel would agree with me. Pretty sure this Jewish states has direct control over a couple million Muslims that are not allowed to vote.

> Really, pretty sure its a Jewish state. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel would agree with me. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel have made it illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement. But it's not accepted to point out that Israel is a distinctly illiberal state by it's overt, foundational policy.

During Israel's founding everyone who was an established resident in the territories was eligible for and offered first-class citizenship in the new state. Local Muslims and Christians who opted-in have enjoyed more prosperity and political representation over the decades than any of Israel's neighbors. Many minorities serve as leaders in the government, military, and private industry.

Israel's neighbors were the ones who encouraged Palestinian leaders to reject both citizenship and two-state solutions across multiple deal opportunities and instead opt for waging an endless violent rebellion. And when the coordinated wars were lost and the time came for offering aid, resources, and immigration opportunities - neighboring countries offered the Palestinians very little compared to the opportunities that Israel offers. They did not step up.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#249

Post by mistermann »

habnds wrote: post #233
mistermann wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article isn't saying that. It's in quotes becuase they are reporting the words of someone they've deemed to be a reputable source for the topic of standard administration behavior. Very good point. My claim: "Stating speculation as fact...." itself could be described as sloppy. To clarify: factually , Politico is printing the words of a third party - it is a fact (presumably) that this person made that statemen…

You should look up any number of books about how the US got into the Spanish American War in 1898. It's a very long standing problem. I wouldn't describe an expert's opinion as "speculation". Maybe it's becuase you don't agree with their opinion that you see it that way?

I'm not sure what the Spanish American War has to do with this?

> I wouldn't describe an expert's opinion as "speculation".

The person isn't describing an event that occurred, but rather what someone else would have done under a given set of circumstances....he is discussing something that literally did not happen (well, at least to his knowledge - if it had, then his speculation could be proven true, false, or other. But he doesn't know everything that has occurred).

It is necessarily speculation, my or your opinion has no bearing on the matter.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#250

Post by wahern »

scottlocklin wrote: post #201
chimi wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Much of their spying on the USA is not to harm the USA, but to ensure the USA is still on their side. I don't think they want to hurt the USA, but I do think they would support an opponent of a politician that had been "heard" expressing a lack of interest in financial and military support for Israel.

Well, they regularly sell US secrets to China, so I don't think they really give two shits about "hurting the US." Examples: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/israel-accused-of-s... https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israe... I could be wrong! Maybe selling US secrets to china is to ensure the USA is still on their side? I'm not a politician; it's above my paygrade. Somehow other US allies…

> I'm pretty sure if it ever got out what the Israelis are doing out in the open to influence US elections (such as attempting to kick Israel critic politicians out of office), that would do even more harm to US-Israel relations than any single politician could.

If they do it out in the open? Netanyahu openly snubbed Obama on various occasions and very publicly sided with conservatives. And with Trump he basically flaunts his partisanship. More importantly, there's a whole subculture in D.C. of Israeli and pro-Israel lobbyists which over the past couple of decades have become quite partisan. It's all out in the open, it's just very difficult to articulate because of anxieties over anti-semitism.

Similarly, but more positively, as I remember it Ariel Sharon quietly (but not secretly) came out against the Iraq War--not the bombing, just that he foresaw chaos from invasion and an attempt at nation building--and made this known to various politicians and leaders in Washington, including President Bush. Though, according to Wikipedia Sharon was far more equivocal and his opinions weren't made known publicly until years later. (Can't be bothered to confirm the accuracy of my memory.)

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