Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill • Hacker News Board

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#121

Post by dragonsh » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 12:51 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #86

dragonsh wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. This is endorsed and approved by Beijing, she already declared the bill dead this is just a matter of wording. Legally it can be brought back as laws are always evolving and Hong Kong needs an extradition treaty with other jurisdiction including another system in its own country. For Mainland Chinese citizen the narrative will be altered, but will still be seen as…

> Violence can never be a solution, only peaceful non-violent struggle can bring about real change. That’s facially not true. The American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Bangladeshi War of Independence, Irish independence, etc. History is full of examples where the right to self determination had to be vindicated with guns. Categorically delegitimizing violence against an oppressive state is a bad precedent.…

There are many studies done and in many non violent struggles are more successful in bringing change. [1] [2]

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2014/07/24/the-proven...

[2] https://www.fastcompany.com/3040831/peaceful-protest-slow-an...

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#122

Post by PavlovsCat » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 12:57 PM UTC

dragonsh wrote: post #80

anvandare wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>only peaceful non-violent struggle can bring about real change. Utterly false, but persistently preached by those in power to ensure there's never any real threat to their position. "Just lie down while I stomp your neck. Don't resist. We'll discuss your objections later, at a more convenient time." All political power emanates from the barrel of a gun. All civil power emanates from the people's latent threat to rev…

> Utterly false, but persistently preached by those in power A non-violent protestor is a person who does not fear anything, and the person who doesn't fear is the most powerful one. Violence is a result of fear, that's the reason need to use weapons and aids to fight back to increase the chances of survival. A true warrior is a fearless person who respond to violence with non-violence and make violent person ashamed…

> Violence is a result of fear

That's the part you got right: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cxz64b/300_uncut_...

But to just speak of violent protestors, while ignoring the triads and people with odd markings doing odd things, the police brutality, and things like this, is also not even close to a complete picture: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cv9y4c/protesters...

> A true warrior is a fearless person who respond to violence with non-violence and make violent person ashamed of themselves.

You cannot make a person have empathy, you can appeal to it, where it exists. Otherwise, you have to defeat them. Not "crush" them, but disarm them and establish boundaries. Without military defeat of Nazi Germany, anything like reflection or reconciliation wasn't even thinkable. As a matter of fact, without their military defeat, we wouldn't know most of what we know about their atrocities today, they were set to purge all evidence as thoroughly as they had exterminated people.

Factual reality, which is at stake, is something even more important than peace -- in the same way atoms are more important than water or orange juice, without atoms, you can't have either. Peace can always erupt again, but destroyed facts remain destroyed, and that being done well enough, can make genuine peace impossbile. A static state of submission is not peace, peace without truthfulness is not peace, and low-intensity people getting disappeared, not asking what happened to your neighbour, is not peace.

    ignorance
    doesn't hurt anybody
    with the exception of those
    who can be hurt
    because nobody knows about it

-- Erich Fried, "Vorteile der Unwissenheit (in allen Ländern der Hochsicherheit)", or "Benefits of ignorance (in all high security nations)"

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#123

Post by nindalf » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 12:58 PM UTC

dirtyid wrote: post #2

I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. In context of Lams leaked resignation remarks yesterday, it looks like Lam is going rogue. She's setting herself up to be replaced via disobedience, because all signs pointed to Emergency Regulations Ordinance being invoked if protest continues. Her legacy is already ruined, but I think she doesn't have the stomach to double down that far. Beijing specifically instr…

It is unclear whether Beijing endorsed this or not.

Why they would not have endorsed this - for the CCP maintaining authority is the paramount objective. At no point can the Party "lose face" by giving in to external demands because that would erode the Party's authority. Any erosion of authority (the thinking goes) could eventually lead to a catastrophic collapse of power leading to civil war like in 1911-1949. This was Deng Xiaoping's overriding concern during his time as paramount leader and he made sure his successors learned it as well. For example, even when the students in Tiananmen Square offered to leave in exchange for some paltry concessions he denied it and cleared the Square with the military. In his opinion and the Party's opinion, negotiating with students would have eroded Party authority irreparably, even if no actual concessions were made. For similar reasons, Lam's request to withdraw this bill earlier this summer was denied by the Party.

If Beijing endorsed this, then it could mean the Party playbook on unrest is being modified as we speak.

If Beijing didn't endorse this, then Lam will now suffer a fate similar to Zhao Ziyang, the Premier during the Tiananmen Square incident. He broke with the other Party leaders and supported the students, leading to his house arrest till his death in 2005.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#124

Post by SkyBelow » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 12:59 PM UTC

dragonsh wrote: post #80

anvandare wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>only peaceful non-violent struggle can bring about real change. Utterly false, but persistently preached by those in power to ensure there's never any real threat to their position. "Just lie down while I stomp your neck. Don't resist. We'll discuss your objections later, at a more convenient time." All political power emanates from the barrel of a gun. All civil power emanates from the people's latent threat to rev…

> Utterly false, but persistently preached by those in power A non-violent protestor is a person who does not fear anything, and the person who doesn't fear is the most powerful one. Violence is a result of fear, that's the reason need to use weapons and aids to fight back to increase the chances of survival. A true warrior is a fearless person who respond to violence with non-violence and make violent person ashamed…

>Violence is a result of fea

Violence is a means to enforce ones will on another. It is only one of such means. It is the mean by which the entire legal system falls back on. It is the mean by which Americans won their independence. It is the mean by which bad people do evil things.

>This is the famous quote of Mao Zedong (毛泽东). "Power flows from the barrel of gun"

And it is the truth, especially if we see take this to be an analogy for strength (before guns, it was swords, before swords it was sticks, before sticks it was fists, these days it might not be guns at the national level, and one day it may be something else entirely).

>It's not a sacred thing, there are many places in this world way more safe and peaceful without the second amendment.

Generally with the backing (perhaps unwillingly) of the nation that has the second amendment, and even those places still use guns to enforce their will on those who do not play along. The smarter areas use it as a last resort and not the first response, but they still use it.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#125

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 1:00 PM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #33

mytailorisrich wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that some of these demands are unrealistic and some are downright unreasonable. Full democracy is a legitimate demand but one that you need to be extremely optimistic, to say the least, to believe that the central government will agree to budge on. On the other hand, demands regarding rioting are unreasonable. There objectively has been rioting going on and no government will accept to send the message…

> On the other hand, demands regarding rioting are unreasonable How else are you supposed to fight against a dictator for life in a system that's not a democracy?

[deleted]

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#126

Post by refurb » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 1:00 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #120

justaguyhere wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

each time, HK will lose a few more rights they used to have. Very likely. Sucks for HK people though :( Same story everywhere - nothing much changed after the Arab spring protests, for example. As impressive as they are, how long can Hong Kong people keep up this level of protests? Beijing can keep the pressure forever and play the long game

>As impressive as they are, how long can Hong Kong people keep up this level of protests? Beijing can keep the pressure forever and play the long game As long as they have food, water and the will to fight. They can play the long game too if they are so inclined. Eventually the CCP will get tired of the expensive, resource sucking bridge to nowhere. Sure, China could carpet bomb HK but the more you destroy it the les…

China has far too much to lose to back down on this one. One could argue the HK protests threaten the survival of the Chinese Communist Party.

Far better for them to lose HK and be condemned globally than lose the all of China.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#127

Post by jplayer01 » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 1:01 PM UTC

devchix wrote: post #114

jplayer01 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The non-violent protest thing seems like a myth that needs to be taken out back and shot, violently. We've seen for decades what they accomplish - absolutely nothing. It reminds me of this. https://theconversation.com/the-forgotten-violence-that-help...

This NPR podcast/article argues different. "...found that major nonviolent campaigns are successful 53% of the time, while violent campaigns are successful only 26% of the time." The Protest Tipping Point (podcast): https://www.npr.org/2019/06/25/736007317/the-protest-tipping... The Magic Number Behind Protests : https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/06/25/735536434/the-...

I'll take a look, thanks.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#128

Post by AFascistWorld » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 1:02 PM UTC

whoevercares wrote: post #99

AFascistWorld wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that's not how economics works, it's like you can't just close your eyes to rocketing condo prices and expect evetything else to remain the same like salaries. Every animal protein source will be driven to raise prices coz it's not like China could produce vastly more but refrained, arable land is not enough, it imports 30% of it's food, they just can't produce the cheap feed crops needed not to mention the…

>Recent 15 years Impressive how arrogant and ignorant this statement is. 15 years ago is 2004 and fk how superior am I to eat meat since 80’s in a third tier city

In the 80's the Chinese navy was using warships to smuggle insanely profitable sedans, coastal cities have secret private workshops which was punishable by the law until 2009, students marched in Beijing to protest againt crony speculatiors including sons of party high officials, city population is 20% of the country, farmers need application and strickly controlled permits to work in cities. Even in the early 2000s farmers aka "blind migrants" were still being rounded up in Shenzhen and arrested.

So I don't really know if you are fk superior.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#129

Post by rayiner » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 1:03 PM UTC

dragonsh wrote: post #121

rayiner wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Violence can never be a solution, only peaceful non-violent struggle can bring about real change. That’s facially not true. The American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Bangladeshi War of Independence, Irish independence, etc. History is full of examples where the right to self determination had to be vindicated with guns. Categorically delegitimizing violence against an oppressive state is a bad precedent.…

There are many studies done and in many non violent struggles are more successful in bringing change. [1] [2] [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2014/07/24/the-proven... [2] https://www.fastcompany.com/3040831/peaceful-protest-slow-an...

You said: “violence can never be a solution.” Your studies do not prove that. They prove that non-violent resistance is usually more effective than violent resistance. That doesn’t mean that, in any given situation, the non-violent solution will be superior. For example, it’s possible (even likely), that people only resort to violence where things have gotten so bad that political approaches have failed. Such situations are of course less likely to result in change than situations where people felt non-violence can work. That doesn’t mean that in that specific situation non-violence would have been more effective. (C-sections have a higher mortality rate than natural birth. That’s because C-sections are disproportionately used in more dire circumstances. But in the same given emergency situation, the C-section could well be more effective than going forward with natural birth.)

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#130

Post by tony » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 1:06 PM UTC

KaoruAoiShiho wrote: post #96

tony wrote: post #55

Random: Did you know Guangzhou (Canton) was briefly capital of China back in the day? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_(1912%E2%80%... There's an important political figure in the history of modern China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen He studied medicine in HK. He lived in Hawaii for a time [1]. He had a political philosophy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Principles_of_the_People To m…

Why is it surprising? Cantonese is one of the largest subgroups of "han".

Not that, but him still being considered a national hero despite his having a different political philosophy.