That's nice
We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too
151–160 of 168 posts
Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
You have totally misconstrued what I am saying. I am NOT blaming anyone. My point is that it is a fantasy to think that wealthy westerners can significantly reduce global consumption by choosing to live a certain way. As a thought experiment, how much of a difference would it have made to the world today if the British empire decreed in 1700 that all its subjects adopt more eco friendly lifestyles?
No, you have indeed constructed a strawman argument based on prejudiced fears of third world 'population explosion' and poor data. Let me put aside the fact that third world peoples are not sitting around waiting for such explosions to occur and are proactive about and invested in our own resources and prospects. Let me put aside the comparison of the poorest, say, Indians (the strata where such an 'explosion' is lik…
What you propose is in fact prejudicial by ascribing primary importance to American agency, and then furthermore by assuming other cultures have the same priorities. This is the same mistake as hoping China would turn into 1 billion big mac eating coke drinking bona fide neoliberals.
Also a demographic trend is not political statement or a value judgement, it is a curve fitting exercise. I never used the word explosion, that’s your word. I am not being alarmist. The long term trend is for population growth to slow if you look at the data.
Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
You have totally misconstrued what I am saying. I am NOT blaming anyone. My point is that it is a fantasy to think that wealthy westerners can significantly reduce global consumption by choosing to live a certain way. As a thought experiment, how much of a difference would it have made to the world today if the British empire decreed in 1700 that all its subjects adopt more eco friendly lifestyles?
No, you have indeed constructed a strawman argument based on prejudiced fears of third world 'population explosion' and poor data. Let me put aside the fact that third world peoples are not sitting around waiting for such explosions to occur and are proactive about and invested in our own resources and prospects. Let me put aside the comparison of the poorest, say, Indians (the strata where such an 'explosion' is lik…
You completely missed the parent point. American consumption might be 10 times the Indian per capita, but there are way more Indians than Americans, and soon there will be more Congolese and Nigerians and other Africans, and while American consumption is going down, African and Asian consumption is going up. If both USA and EU disappeared today, it would only reduce global emissions by 25%, and that fraction will go down as African and Asian emissions grow. If USA cut its emissions in half, it would reduce global emissions by something like 7%. So yes, we can try to reduce our consumption, but it won't really change a thing in grand scheme of things.
Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
I doubt more than a handful of people would trade their lives for subsistence farming, and those would likely trade back after a year or two.
No doubt. But who claimed otherwise? The closest I could find is that CalRoberts said thay theyd'd spend more time gardening and cooking if they had the time, which is hard to refute unless you know them personally, is not an overgeneralisation -- and even if it was, growing a few tomatoes is a far fetch from subsistence farming. You're making a classic straw man argument.
> You're making a classic straw man argument.
Am I? Because that's what one winds up with if one dispenses with buying all that stuff people were induced to want by industry.
Besides, it's a mite presumptuous to claim that people are wasting their lives acquiring things they are induced to want, rather than actually wanting.
Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
What kind of units are you after? It is clear that the proposal would lead to a lot less energy usage and less pollution and thus to a cleaner environment, places where most energy generates little pollution would see the fewer benefits, which would help to ameliorate the effects of climate change.
Like degrees of avoided warming. Because the proposal above is not sufficient to avoid climate change in any significant respect, especially a counting for increased living standards in India and China.
[deleted]
Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
> They said that you are "connected" to deforestation if you are living in a developed economy - you interpreted that as implying that all people in developed economies are sinning. They didn't say that everyone is guilty, just connected. He replied to "if you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most like…
> Now my question is, how do we become unconnected? That's easy. The people of the Amazon pass some laws that protect their land. America has this form of protection vs exploitation. Brazil needs to get with the program. Its not an American problem - I eat corn fed beef and pork from Kansas and Nebraska.
By buying meat in a global market, you are creating demand for meat, which affects all markets.
The only way the purchase of a good can fail to move global markets is to be wholly disconnected from the market. This means you would have to live in a country that neither imports nor exports meat at all.
Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is insane... I react to a post saying "I am not connected to what happens in Brazil" by saying, yes, as a matter of fact, you are very likely to be connected to those events and people jump the gun and talk about sin, guilt and boogeymen... We have a problem. We have put in place structures, institutions and incentives that are failing us and jeopardizing our capacity to protect our values in the future. I agree…
The problem needs to be addressed by those citizens of the country where the deforestation is happening. If they are willing to allow it to happen to their natural resource, why would I assume in arrogance that I have a right to tell them they're wrong and then blame everyone else for what that country is doing? Lifestyle changes won't change deforestation. The people of Brazil are the ones you need to target your me…
There are many tools that the international community has to influence domestic policy for a given country. We use economic sanctions all the time.
If the international community decided to stop buying beef and soy from Brazil, the demand would evaporate and it wouldn't be economical for them to continue their practices.
Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem needs to be addressed by those citizens of the country where the deforestation is happening. If they are willing to allow it to happen to their natural resource, why would I assume in arrogance that I have a right to tell them they're wrong and then blame everyone else for what that country is doing? Lifestyle changes won't change deforestation. The people of Brazil are the ones you need to target your me…
There are many tools that the international community has to influence domestic policy for a given country. We use economic sanctions all the time. If the international community decided to stop buying beef and soy from Brazil, the demand would evaporate and it wouldn't be economical for them to continue their practices.
When you say international community, what do you mean, the UN? The WTO? The G7?
I'm curious. What precedents are there for such a "community" to enforce sanctions on a country's use of their own natural resources?
Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
>You could hire an EV for a weekend excursion or take a slow, internet-connected ship to travel for an overseas holiday. I think part of the reason air travel is so popular is that people are trying to make the best of what little vacation time they have. Slow travel would be so much nicer if one could afford an extra week dedicated to the journey.
I feel this is a factor, but contributes very little. Having a choice between 1 week travel + 2 weeks at the destination, vs. 1 day travel + 2 weeks and 6 days at the destination, I'd chose the latter. Unless travel is a special experience in itself, people will consider it just means to an end, and pick the most convenient one affordable.
For things like a transcontinental flight, etc. this is very true. But for things like, say, my recent trip from Portland OR to Sacramento, having vacation measured in weeks and not days makes it feasible to do things like take a train (highly recommended - a sleeper car is a MUCH nicer experience with an infant than an airplane)
Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
No doubt. But who claimed otherwise? The closest I could find is that CalRoberts said thay theyd'd spend more time gardening and cooking if they had the time, which is hard to refute unless you know them personally, is not an overgeneralisation -- and even if it was, growing a few tomatoes is a far fetch from subsistence farming. You're making a classic straw man argument.
> You're making a classic straw man argument. Am I? Because that's what one winds up with if one dispenses with buying all that stuff people were induced to want by industry. Besides, it's a mite presumptuous to claim that people are wasting their lives acquiring things they are induced to want, rather than actually wanting.
My original intent was to suggest that wealthy people consume more (after all, they have the wealth to do so) and ultimately a lot of our current economic system is designed to serve those needs. There's the classic example of "rich nerds in SF trying to solve problems for other rich nerds" but ultimately it's a matter of who controls most of the income that can be spent on non-necessities.