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We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

theguardian.com

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Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#91

Post by dredmorbius »

tempguy9999 wrote: post #76
missosoup wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. Changing diets yes. Changing driving habits, not really. Personal use of passenger vehicles accounts for a tiny fraction of transportation related CO2 emissions. The overwhelming majority comes from cargo ships and associated logistics. A typical cargo ship will burn about 30 liters of bunker fuel (far more polluting than…

> will burn about 30 liters of bunker fuel.. to travel 1 meter That's either a typo or a thinko. 30 litres per metre would be 30,000 litres (a guess; 25 tons?) of bunker per kilometre. From your own link "These mammoth engines [of the emma maersk] consume approx 16 tons of fuel per hour or 380 tons per day while at sea." I don't have time to work it out but 30 litres per KM would be less wrong anyway.

I get 90 feet per gallon, or 7.4 meters/liter.

Based on 1660 gallons fuel/hr at 25 knots.

That's 136 liters/km, or 57 gallons/mile.

And it's moving 157,000 tons (DWT).

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#92

Post by chmod775 »

lucian1900 wrote: post #87
sneak wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is a dire logical error to equate capitalism, which arises naturally out of fair and mutually consensual dealing between humans, and the neverending consumer consumption drive epitomized by the global west. They are not the same thing, and the former does not necessitate the latter. Same goes for all the other ills of our society that people misguidedly invoke under the “capitalism” umbrella, like intellec…

They are exactly the same thing. Capitalism requires endless growth, which requires endless production and consumption. Those in turn require imperialism, to have a supply of desperate workers and consumers. Imperialism is not always overtly military, but it is always a threat of violence in order to assert power. Read Lenin's "Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism", he makes it very easy to understand.

> Capitalism requires endless growth.

This is incorrect. Just the particular way some countries have their capitalist systems and priorities set up requires endless growth.

But even then, if you'd just allow for bankruptcy to weed out the worst performers, forfeiting outstanding debt, you can do without it. Another way is compensating for it with inflation. But instead debt tends to be funneled upwards until governments are left holding the bag with no other option but to grow their way out of it for fear of causing inflation.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#93

Post by dharma1 »

teddyuk wrote: post #34
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but like parent said, we're starved of time. I would love to bike or take public transport to work but that's over an hour of commute vs 20-25 minutes by car and I don't live in the middle of nowhere but in a medium sized European city. The problem is the employers who move to the sticks, far away from the cties, where office space is cheapest and assume their workers can afford cars and should commute. Not only…

In london commuter trains are over crowded and they spend millions (billions?) every year on upgrading and it costs me about £900 a month to use these trains. If governments incentivised companies to encourage remote work, this money would be unnecessary as many people wouldn't commute any more - saving money for everyone, saving the environment and allowing people to have a home life and see their kids/partner etc.…

What would the right incentives be? I agree, btw

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#94

Post by 22dingdongdung »

fit2rule wrote: post #68
CalRobert wrote: post #17

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

My family and I have changed our ways. I used to live a typically American lifestyle - spending 4 hours every day in the car, mostly parked on a freeway, to get to work. Ordering takeout 5 times a week because I was too exhausted to cook for myself. Buying useless crap that filled my house, only to get a bigger house for more useless crap. But, after the 9/11 attacks, I took a good hard look at myself. You could say,…

(I'll be labelled a bigot but go look at the increased crimes...)

I want to move to Europe someplace without the immigrant problem- is Austria good?

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#95

Post by reallydontask »

rayiner wrote: post #89
CalRobert wrote: post #17

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

> A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long, long way Can you quantify that into something more precise than a fuzzy feeling?

What kind of units are you after?

It is clear that the proposal would lead to a lot less energy usage and less pollution and thus to a cleaner environment, places where most energy generates little pollution would see the fewer benefits, which would help to ameliorate the effects of climate change.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#96

Post by coldtea »

sneak wrote: post #83
bbddg wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of Capitalism."

I think it is a dire logical error to equate capitalism, which arises naturally out of fair and mutually consensual dealing between humans, and the neverending consumer consumption drive epitomized by the global west. They are not the same thing, and the former does not necessitate the latter. Same goes for all the other ills of our society that people misguidedly invoke under the “capitalism” umbrella, like intellec…

>I think it is a dire logical error to equate capitalism, which arises naturally out of fair and mutually consensual dealing between humans, and the neverending consumer consumption drive epitomized by the global west.

I don't think "really existing capitalism" "arises naturally out of fair and mutually consensual dealing between humans".

We should not confuse trade (which always existed) with capitalism, which is a relatively recent development (circa 14-16 century and spread from then), tied to banking, stock market, industrialization, the "protestant work ethic" and so on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism#Origins_...

For millennia civilizations had trade but no capitalism.

Plus histories of early capitalism mention how rural populations had to be pushed, by government decrees, unfavorable ad-hoc laws, manufactured famines, and so on to go and become workers.

And of course, modern capitalism, with rampant commercialization of all fields of life, advertising, the stock market, etc is another thing entirely.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#97

Post by sound_vapours »

CalRobert wrote: post #17

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

>You could hire an EV for a weekend excursion or take a slow, internet-connected ship to travel for an overseas holiday.

I think part of the reason air travel is so popular is that people are trying to make the best of what little vacation time they have. Slow travel would be so much nicer if one could afford an extra week dedicated to the journey.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#98

Post by dredmorbius »

missosoup wrote: post #54
exergy wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for your claim? Here[1] is a link I found breaking down the fuel consumption by sector. Seems Motor Oil vastly outscores Residue Fuel Oil, which I believe is what tankers use. I may be wrong, though, and would be interested in being corrected. [1] https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/sec3_23.pdf

https://medium.com/@victoria27/heres-how-much-pollution-ship... https://www.ft.com/content/8bceef94-86cd-11e9-a028-86cea8523... https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/cargo-container-shipping... https://newatlas.com/shipping-pollution/11526/ https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/why-australia-is-not-maki... My actual job is in the shipping route optimisation space. Sub-percentile improvements in fuel consumption for a sing…

Your sources are in error. Particularly the first, which I believe is confusing particulate and/or sulfer emissions with CO2 emissions. It cites several further news articles, not a primary source.

The inews source compounds this error, and is cited by the Medium blog.

The newatlas source confirms this: "The low grade bunker fuel used by the worlds 90,000 cargo ships contains up to 2,000 times the amount of sulfur compared to diesel fuel used in automobiles." The measurement is sulfur emissions and NOT CO2.

FT likewise discusses sulfur and not CO2: "Sulphur dioxide emissions from cars was 3.2m kt versus 62m kt from cruise ships, with Carnival accounting for half that, the study found."

The AFR link discusses seafood and not shipping emissions.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#99

Post by aitchnyu »

rnabel wrote: post #27
furioushatter wrote: post #8

we gotta stop using palm oil, that's gonna be a challenge but I'm more conscious now on product that contain it and try to do my part from where I'm at cause for sure if be volunteering to fight the fire if I was there.

I would recommend reading this article by The Guardian on palm oil: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/feb/19/palm-oil-ingred... (It is also available in podcast form) From the article: > Most importantly, it gives the highest yield per acre of any oilseed crop – almost five times as much oil per acre as rapeseed, almost six times as much as sunflower and more than eight times as much as soybeans. Boycotts of palm…

So what would reduce demand for palm oil from rainforests?

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#100

Post by Gatsky »

CalRobert wrote: post #17

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

This is a lovely idea, but totally ignorant of global demography[1]. By 2100 there will be >3 billion people living in India and central Africa. Centra Africa in particular will show some of the greatest population growth. There will be another 300 million people living in the Congo, which is one fifth the size of the USA and a nightmarish war zone most of the time. There will be a stunning 600 million more people in Nigeria, which is even smaller. The irony is that these people will be mostly-vegetarian, use renewable energy and travel by bike, just not by their own choosing. Sheer numbers however will ensure global consumption continues to increase rapidly.

I don't know what the solution is, but the lifestyle choices of the Western world will become increasingly irrelevant.

[1] https://ourworldindata.org/future-population-growth

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