We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too • Hacker News Board

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#101

Post by lucian1900 » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 11:03 AM UTC

chmod775 wrote: post #92

lucian1900 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are exactly the same thing. Capitalism requires endless growth, which requires endless production and consumption. Those in turn require imperialism, to have a supply of desperate workers and consumers. Imperialism is not always overtly military, but it is always a threat of violence in order to assert power. Read Lenin's "Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism", he makes it very easy to understand.

> Capitalism requires endless growth. This is incorrect. Just the particular way some countries have their capitalist systems and priorities set up requires endless growth. But even then, if you'd just allow for bankruptcy to weed out the worst performers, forfeiting outstanding debt, you can do without it. Another way is compensating for it with inflation. But instead debt tends to be funneled upwards until governme…

All capitalist countries define a lack of economic growth as a recession.

What incentive would there even be for companies to maintain or reduce their profits over time?

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#102

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 11:03 AM UTC

lostjohnny wrote: post #33

jamesb93 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even that far. Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. As someone who is fairly new to adulthood I dont really see why we work so much - there just doesn't seem like there is much to "get". There should ve a greater focus on tending our environments around us, spending money on experiences and creating art (or even just having a hobby).

> Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. No, it wouldn't. Look at pandas, they are bears (omnivores, like us), living on a primarily vegetarian diet. They sleep 16 hours a day and when they are awake they eat, because a vegetarian diet is not really energy efficient. If we are talking about a true vegetarian diet, environmental friendly. if we are talking about "…

[deleted]

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#103

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 11:03 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #42

cm2187 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just personal gain. The benefits of industrialisation and capitalism have been tremendous for people’s quality of life, stability of their food supply, access to medicine, work hours, work conditions. If it has an impact on the climate it is regrettable and should be mitigated as possible, but it is still a major net positive.

The benefits of industrialisation and capitalism have been tremendous for people’s quality of life, stability of their food supply, access to medicine, work hours, work conditions. While it's true that workers have better and easier lives now than they have had in the past, I don't believe many early entrepreneurs pushed for industrialization for the societal benefits. They did it because those changes made them mass…

I've noticed this is a general bait-and-switch our civilization makes about the economy, to which we're all exposed since childhood.

As a kid you're led to believe that various careers have value because of nice benefits to society they create. Maybe you wanted to become a pilot, because you read that pilots fly planes that carry people and passengers to the places they need to be, and those pilots get to enjoy being up there with the birds and all. Then you become a pilot, and you learn that it was all a lie. The airline doesn't care about people or freight, they care about numbers in a spreadsheet, and it just so happens they fly planes to make those numbers grow. As a pilot, you're not enjoying freedom of flying and being with the birds, you're operating a semi-automated machine according to a checklist, and do what the airline tells you to do so that their numbers go up. People? Freight? Them needing to be elsewhere? Nobody cares about that.

One of the saddest discovery in my life was the realization that a similar thing is the case with all careers. Every thing that's valuable to people, once it gets scaled up and incorporated into the economy, suddenly loses all its meaning, and becomes driven primarily by considerations of profit.

I'm not sure whether it's a good thing or bad thing. Maybe it's inevitable. But I do know that nobody told me as a kid that society uses money and markets as a proxy for decision making purposes, and we assume that making money is the best indicator that you're doing good through whatever it is that you're doing.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#104

Post by kzzy » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 11:06 AM UTC

Gatsky wrote: post #100

CalRobert wrote: post #17

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

This is a lovely idea, but totally ignorant of global demography[1]. By 2100 there will be >3 billion people living in India and central Africa. Centra Africa in particular will show some of the greatest population growth. There will be another 300 million people living in the Congo, which is one fifth the size of the USA and a nightmarish war zone most of the time. There will be a stunning 600 million more people in…

I am amazed that you're blaming future humans in the third world for current issues created by first world consumerism. Sorry but it is an absurd strawman argument and reeks of your privilege.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#105

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 11:07 AM UTC

sound_vapours wrote: post #97

CalRobert wrote: post #17

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

>You could hire an EV for a weekend excursion or take a slow, internet-connected ship to travel for an overseas holiday. I think part of the reason air travel is so popular is that people are trying to make the best of what little vacation time they have. Slow travel would be so much nicer if one could afford an extra week dedicated to the journey.

I feel this is a factor, but contributes very little. Having a choice between 1 week travel + 2 weeks at the destination, vs. 1 day travel + 2 weeks and 6 days at the destination, I'd chose the latter.

Unless travel is a special experience in itself, people will consider it just means to an end, and pick the most convenient one affordable.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#106

Post by scns » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 11:08 AM UTC

lostjohnny wrote: post #33

jamesb93 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even that far. Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. As someone who is fairly new to adulthood I dont really see why we work so much - there just doesn't seem like there is much to "get". There should ve a greater focus on tending our environments around us, spending money on experiences and creating art (or even just having a hobby).

> Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. No, it wouldn't. Look at pandas, they are bears (omnivores, like us), living on a primarily vegetarian diet. They sleep 16 hours a day and when they are awake they eat, because a vegetarian diet is not really energy efficient. If we are talking about a true vegetarian diet, environmental friendly. if we are talking about "…

i would against eating all food raw. The following is a comment i made in another thread:

Raw fruit is fine, veggies not really. Many contain substances that should deter animals from eating them. The digestibility of veggies usually increases when they are cooked.

wheat contains Phytic acid for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytic_acid which can be reduced with the correct dough process.

The beta-carotene in carrots is fat soluble and the cells are pretty robust, so you get more out of them if you cook them in fat.

Champignons contain a mild poison, which is not deadly for humans but destroyed when heated, digestibility increases too.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20138665

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#107

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 11:12 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #105

sound_vapours wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You could hire an EV for a weekend excursion or take a slow, internet-connected ship to travel for an overseas holiday. I think part of the reason air travel is so popular is that people are trying to make the best of what little vacation time they have. Slow travel would be so much nicer if one could afford an extra week dedicated to the journey.

I feel this is a factor, but contributes very little. Having a choice between 1 week travel + 2 weeks at the destination, vs. 1 day travel + 2 weeks and 6 days at the destination, I'd chose the latter. Unless travel is a special experience in itself, people will consider it just means to an end, and pick the most convenient one affordable.

[deleted]

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#108

Post by notyourday » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 11:13 AM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #17

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

> You could hire an EV for a weekend excursion or take a slow, internet-connected ship to travel for an overseas holiday.

> Also, make 3 months' vacation the minimum. Turn off Slack at 5 PM. We have so much material crap it's hard to fathom, but many people are horribly starved of time. If I had more time I know I'd cook more and work in the garden more instead of ordering takeaway.

In the words of the Maria Antoinette "Let them eat cake"!

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#109

Post by Gatsky » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 11:16 AM UTC

kzzy wrote: post #104

Gatsky wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a lovely idea, but totally ignorant of global demography[1]. By 2100 there will be >3 billion people living in India and central Africa. Centra Africa in particular will show some of the greatest population growth. There will be another 300 million people living in the Congo, which is one fifth the size of the USA and a nightmarish war zone most of the time. There will be a stunning 600 million more people in…

I am amazed that you're blaming future humans in the third world for current issues created by first world consumerism. Sorry but it is an absurd strawman argument and reeks of your privilege.

You have totally misconstrued what I am saying. I am NOT blaming anyone. My point is that it is a fantasy to think that wealthy westerners can significantly reduce global consumption by choosing to live a certain way.

As a thought experiment, how much of a difference would it have made to the world today if the British empire decreed in 1700 that all its subjects adopt more eco friendly lifestyles?

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#110

Post by chmod775 » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 11:17 AM UTC

lucian1900 wrote: post #101

chmod775 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Capitalism requires endless growth. This is incorrect. Just the particular way some countries have their capitalist systems and priorities set up requires endless growth. But even then, if you'd just allow for bankruptcy to weed out the worst performers, forfeiting outstanding debt, you can do without it. Another way is compensating for it with inflation. But instead debt tends to be funneled upwards until governme…

All capitalist countries define a lack of economic growth as a recession. What incentive would there even be for companies to maintain or reduce their profits over time?

> What incentive would there even be for companies to maintain or reduce their profits over time?

Wanting to do something is very different from having to do something.