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We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

theguardian.com

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Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#131

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

CalRobert wrote: post #124
teddyuk wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In london commuter trains are over crowded and they spend millions (billions?) every year on upgrading and it costs me about £900 a month to use these trains. If governments incentivised companies to encourage remote work, this money would be unnecessary as many people wouldn't commute any more - saving money for everyone, saving the environment and allowing people to have a home life and see their kids/partner etc.…

They could also make it easier for people to live near their jobs. It's surprising how quickly you hit low density areas, even near the train.

That would have worked in the days of a job for life but now, once you have a family, you can't keep moving every 2-3 years where your next job will be.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#132

Post by ptah »

lagadu wrote: post #35
propater wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am always a bit baffled when, after decades of living in a globalized economy, people who are part of advanced economies claim they have no connections to events, driven by economics, occurring on the other side of the world. If you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most likely connected to the intern…

I guess I am your boogeyman: I eat meat regularly, have investments, grew up and live in the middle of a western society. By default I'm inclined to stop doing exactly zero of those, and by saying "you're at fault no matter what you do or don't do" you've just removed the sole remaining incentive for me to stop doing it: being able to say "it's not my fault". If I'm to blame no matter what I do, I might as well enjoy…

this kind of thinking is why we are doomed. obviously there are things you can do, but you just choose to ignore them and take offence instead

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#133

Post by kzzy »

Gatsky wrote: post #109
kzzy wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am amazed that you're blaming future humans in the third world for current issues created by first world consumerism. Sorry but it is an absurd strawman argument and reeks of your privilege.

You have totally misconstrued what I am saying. I am NOT blaming anyone. My point is that it is a fantasy to think that wealthy westerners can significantly reduce global consumption by choosing to live a certain way. As a thought experiment, how much of a difference would it have made to the world today if the British empire decreed in 1700 that all its subjects adopt more eco friendly lifestyles?

No, you have indeed constructed a strawman argument based on prejudiced fears of third world 'population explosion' and poor data. Let me put aside the fact that third world peoples are not sitting around waiting for such explosions to occur and are proactive about and invested in our own resources and prospects. Let me put aside the comparison of the poorest, say, Indians (the strata where such an 'explosion' is likeliest to occur due to a host of social reasons) vs the richest, say, Americans. Even putting all that aside: the per capita consumption of an American is 10 times that of an Indian based on latest data [1].

[1]: https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&...

And this does not at all take into account that so, so much of American consumer goods are manufactured abroad and does not factor into this calculation.

Really, please interrogate the kind of prejudice that leads to projections of the kind you have accepted, and the kind of prejudice that then uses it as a rationalization for not course-correcting own behavior.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#134

Post by fit2rule »

CalRobert wrote: post #123
fit2rule wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family and I have changed our ways. I used to live a typically American lifestyle - spending 4 hours every day in the car, mostly parked on a freeway, to get to work. Ordering takeout 5 times a week because I was too exhausted to cook for myself. Buying useless crap that filled my house, only to get a bigger house for more useless crap. But, after the 9/11 attacks, I took a good hard look at myself. You could say,…

Would love to compare notes! Left the US in 2013, and living on a bit of land in Ireland at the moment. Remote work helps a lot. The city trap is a big problem for a few reasons, and I LOVE cities. Sadly we have artificially constrained them (especially in the US, where it's illegal to build a real city and not just a zombie stretch of suburbia). In short, if you're in debt for the necessities of life (i.e. you have…

Debt is indeed a big part of the trap. The only way to avoid it is to work ones ass off. Such is the nature of the world.

Cities have their pros and cons. A lot of cities, especially in my neighbourhood, have their amazing cons, and I don't mean conveniences. Living as though ones external geometry was governed by the size of a horses ass, for example, can be a real drag. (Vienna is a horse town.)

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#135

Post by coldtea »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #114
chmod775 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What incentive would there even be for companies to maintain or reduce their profits over time? Wanting to do something is very different from having to do something.

Well, you kind of have to - otherwise people starve. There's lot of excesses and pointless elements to economies worldwide, but ultimately, at minimum they have to grow to compensate for population growth, or people will starve. And they really have to grow more than that, because a lot of people live in bad conditions and they justifiably want to earn their way out of it. Growth is currently needed in the world we l…

>There's lot of excesses and pointless elements to economies worldwide, but ultimately, at minimum they have to grow to compensate for population growth, or people will starve.

Several issues with this.

There's no requirement that we need to have "population growth" above replacement rate. In fact we should probably have below for a while - and in many western countries we do. In which case "we need growth because we need to cater for the population growth" is a moot point.

Second, "a lot of people living in bad conditions" does not necessarily means growth is required to get them out. Especially since we have unprecedented inequality and hoarding of resources by tiny elites. More equality / better distribution (and no grabbing from ex-colonial powers of developing world resource) would go a long way.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#136

Post by fit2rule »

datenhorst wrote: post #119
fit2rule wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family and I have changed our ways. I used to live a typically American lifestyle - spending 4 hours every day in the car, mostly parked on a freeway, to get to work. Ordering takeout 5 times a week because I was too exhausted to cook for myself. Buying useless crap that filled my house, only to get a bigger house for more useless crap. But, after the 9/11 attacks, I took a good hard look at myself. You could say,…

> (Vienna, Austria) - a country that has long since decided to upgrade the standard of living of its people through smart economic policies designed to reduce dependence on petroleum. As someone from a bordering country, that is a surprising statement. Could you expand on that point a bit?

Austria's Green Electricity Act 2012 has been regarded as pretty much successful.

It helps that Austria has a tradition of strong ecological standing - it has very much protected its natural resources and its forests have been maintained (by their private owners) for centuries now, as a form of renewable energy.

Austria is pretty well regarded as a hydroelectric producer, and from where I stand here now, I see fields of wind power production far off in the distance. My immediate energy supply is 100% renewable - house solar, charged from the aforementioned grid when necessary - but installed on the basis of a government subsidy.

Not a day goes by when I don't see new electric vehicles on the road. Not just Tesla's, but also mopeds. In fact, this year the European electric moped revolution seems to have kicked off ..

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#137

Post by propater »

johnisgood wrote: post #117
oddeyed wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment reads like you are projecting your own guilt onto the parent. They said that you are "connected" to deforestation if you are living in a developed economy - you interpreted that as implying that all people in developed economies are sinning. They didn't say that everyone is guilty, just connected. They then made two conditions predicated on having high socio-economic status (eating meat regularly, invest…

> They said that you are "connected" to deforestation if you are living in a developed economy - you interpreted that as implying that all people in developed economies are sinning. They didn't say that everyone is guilty, just connected. He replied to "if you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most like…

Stop thinking in terms of individual guilt and how to avoid it, think in terms of collective responsibility. What do we need to do to solve the problem, not what do I need to do to exculpate myself from it.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#138

Post by Fjolsvith »

johnisgood wrote: post #117
oddeyed wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment reads like you are projecting your own guilt onto the parent. They said that you are "connected" to deforestation if you are living in a developed economy - you interpreted that as implying that all people in developed economies are sinning. They didn't say that everyone is guilty, just connected. They then made two conditions predicated on having high socio-economic status (eating meat regularly, invest…

> They said that you are "connected" to deforestation if you are living in a developed economy - you interpreted that as implying that all people in developed economies are sinning. They didn't say that everyone is guilty, just connected. He replied to "if you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most like…

> Now my question is, how do we become unconnected?

That's easy. The people of the Amazon pass some laws that protect their land.

America has this form of protection vs exploitation. Brazil needs to get with the program. Its not an American problem - I eat corn fed beef and pork from Kansas and Nebraska.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#139

Post by Fjolsvith »

propater wrote: post #62
lagadu wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I am your boogeyman: I eat meat regularly, have investments, grew up and live in the middle of a western society. By default I'm inclined to stop doing exactly zero of those, and by saying "you're at fault no matter what you do or don't do" you've just removed the sole remaining incentive for me to stop doing it: being able to say "it's not my fault". If I'm to blame no matter what I do, I might as well enjoy…

This is insane... I react to a post saying "I am not connected to what happens in Brazil" by saying, yes, as a matter of fact, you are very likely to be connected to those events and people jump the gun and talk about sin, guilt and boogeymen... We have a problem. We have put in place structures, institutions and incentives that are failing us and jeopardizing our capacity to protect our values in the future. I agree…

The problem needs to be addressed by those citizens of the country where the deforestation is happening. If they are willing to allow it to happen to their natural resource, why would I assume in arrogance that I have a right to tell them they're wrong and then blame everyone else for what that country is doing?

Lifestyle changes won't change deforestation. The people of Brazil are the ones you need to target your message to.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#140

Post by Fjolsvith »

propater wrote: post #70
lagadu wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human behavior is economic behavior, which is a fancy way of saying "people do things because there's a perceived benefit to doing so". Altruistic behavior usually carries at least a social benefit, besides the "I did good" feeling which is also a personal benefit. Blaming someone for something outside their control and saying that they're always to blame no matter what nullifies both of those incentives: you stop re…

I think you are too focused on the individual. Reducing your personal meat consumption, your personal emissions and so on is nice and all but it is not going to be enough. You are also embedded in a number of social structures and institutions and those will have to change too if we want to be able to claim to be "guilt free" and those changes require personal involvement.

Individuals tend to focus on the individual. Trying to change everyone's routine is like trying to push water upstream. You'd be better served by targeting a message to the Brazilian people that they should protect their natural resource.
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