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The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

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81–90 of 108 posts

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#81
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with a solid STEM background may not get a job in their field, but they learn skills that are generally useful outside of their specialty. I was working with a recent MIT graduate who had a Masters in Engine Design. While his job had little to do with that, it did make use of his significant statistics training and paid a significant salary. By comparison my coworker with a Philosophy degree had gained what he…

It's true that non-CS STEM degrees are very fungible. CS degrees, however, are not.

CS is still a little fungible. I have worked with many programmers without a CS degree. They often took some programming classes as part of a STEM degree and spent significant time coding in collage.

These people often go back for a masters in CS, but that’s not required to work in the field.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#82
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two points: it seems a little grotesque to be focusing on creating people trained in STEM solely for the purpose of keeping an "economic edge", as if they were troops that we need to keep us safe, and university students are some kind of army we need to train, and secondly more and more ethical and cultural issues due to what STEM students go on to create have come to light recently, and training in critical thinking…

I mean, you're not wrong. That's the whole point behind a specialized workforce. The whole point to modern society is individuals focus on something and do it, really, really well. We then suffer doing other stuff competently. Other than the occasional hobby gardener, how many tech engineers know how to maintain a vegetable garden? I've asked this to a few people before. They just imagine it's as simple as throwing s…

The whole ideology of capitalist society is that you're supposed to be able to pursue whatever goal you'd like, that you accept the consequences of that decision, and that there is no common good by which individuals should be directed, at least by force. Now I don't think that's the case, obviously, but that's the ideological line. Thus the creation of an "army" of structural engineers would involve some level of coercion to direct the wants and needs and mold ordinary members of society into the engineers of that society. The precondition for this is only being a member of society with sufficient funds (or ability to loan) to enter the education system. But the precondition being 'molded' this way is different from the army system in most Western countries in which there is no conscription. You never chose to be molded that way, you were simply born with access to the education system. By joining the army you chose to be molded that way. I concede that 'molding' happens all the time from every imaginable source, but it seems to me to run directly counter to at least the spirit of freedom to pursue one's own ends under such influence. The invisible hand is superseded by a government's education secretary.

With regards to your point, the answer probably lies along the different types of reason. To put it crudely, if we were to ask whether a bomb made by a mad scientist is 'good', an engineer will first be directed to look at it in terms of destructive capacity, wear/tear, whether it can be used in the rain, and whether the production line is future-proof against enemies. The philosophy student, hopefully, will be directed to ask whether it was ethical for the mad scientist to create the bomb. The difference here turns on the meaning of the criterion (goodness), which is viewed from two different perspectives.

Plenty of "liberal arts" degree holders really do engage in analysis of complex, real world problems. For instance, the debate around, say, pornography (a very contentious topic which can and does inform legislation), distributive justice, or taxation (in the more abstract sense) is usually held by philosophers and sociologists. These are extremely important and complex problems that are informed by empirical data, not unlike in engineering. It seems as though you expect the philosopher to come forward with a ready-made solution, and indeed many do, but the field operates differently, it operates through dialogue, not only learning from past work. Next, it is worth considering whether working on the real world problems "close to you" is more important than more abstract ones. Philosophy and sociology work at a slower pace than the already slow engineering. It takes years or decades for new engineering works to make their way to pervade society (not merely to influence a few companies in tight competition with another) and it likewise takes a long time for attitudes to change.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#83
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with a solid STEM background may not get a job in their field, but they learn skills that are generally useful outside of their specialty. I was working with a recent MIT graduate who had a Masters in Engine Design. While his job had little to do with that, it did make use of his significant statistics training and paid a significant salary. By comparison my coworker with a Philosophy degree had gained what he…

It's true that non-CS STEM degrees are very fungible. CS degrees, however, are not.

Anyone with a real CS degree should be able to learn a new toolkit in six months. The "STEM" crisis is from companies not wanting to pay for that six months.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#84
post #30

It seems to me that there is a shortage of qualified employees and yet also a shortage of jobs in every single well-paid, well regarded sector. It's almost as if we want people to train themselves to work doing hard stuff and also don't want to pay them to do it. In other news, water is wet.

Engineering and programming? There is a shortage of people. Plenty of jobs.

> Plenty of jobs.

There's plenty of jobs, but also plenty of applicants. Ask any one of these companies how many resumes they get, or how long it takes them to fill a position.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#85
I am starting to disagree with what I an also starting to call “The Religion of STEM”. I say this as a card-carrying believer. And yet, I am starting to leave yet one more religion behind in favor of what I think is truly lacking with our approach to education:

Entrepreneurship, business, personal finances and multiple servings of critical reasoning. And more...

Kids, after thirteen years of schooling, are handed to society with virtually no marketable skills whatsoever. Zero. The only two paths they have are:

-College

-Stacking boxes at Office Depot (or making coffee, etc)

Knowing how to code, I hate to say, is the last thing most people need in life. It is, without a doubt, a useless skill for the vast majority of HS graduates. What we should be teaching, we do not.

They need to learn all of the above as well as walk out of school with one or more marketable skills.

Love STEM. I even mentor a local HS robotics team. We need to do more. Education is broken.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#86
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that non-CS STEM degrees are very fungible. CS degrees, however, are not.

Anyone with a real CS degree should be able to learn a new toolkit in six months. The "STEM" crisis is from companies not wanting to pay for that six months.

That's not what I meant by fungible. You don't see CS degree'd people moving into electronics, fluid mechanics or mechanical design.

The math and mathematical techniques for electronics, fluid mechanics, statics, and kinematics is all the same. For example, a mass/spring/damper system is the same as an inductor/capacitor/resister network.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#87
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two points: it seems a little grotesque to be focusing on creating people trained in STEM solely for the purpose of keeping an "economic edge", as if they were troops that we need to keep us safe, and university students are some kind of army we need to train, and secondly more and more ethical and cultural issues due to what STEM students go on to create have come to light recently, and training in critical thinking…

I mean, you're not wrong. That's the whole point behind a specialized workforce. The whole point to modern society is individuals focus on something and do it, really, really well. We then suffer doing other stuff competently. Other than the occasional hobby gardener, how many tech engineers know how to maintain a vegetable garden? I've asked this to a few people before. They just imagine it's as simple as throwing s…

Engineer here with an anecdotal story. My sibling has a doctorate in liberal arts (teaches at a university and publishes papers) and reads quite a bit and has said similar things on how this aids in critical thinking. They're great in some discussions, but all technology is essentially magic and math is complete gobblegook to this individual. This isn't to say they aren't smart and don't add value to society, but the things this person and many of their colleagues lack (basic numerical literacy) is important and a big part of what separates us from far more primitive cultures over centuries. I understand specialization and how it is vital, but a vast window of the universe is closed off to them.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#88
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you're not wrong. That's the whole point behind a specialized workforce. The whole point to modern society is individuals focus on something and do it, really, really well. We then suffer doing other stuff competently. Other than the occasional hobby gardener, how many tech engineers know how to maintain a vegetable garden? I've asked this to a few people before. They just imagine it's as simple as throwing s…

Engineer here with an anecdotal story. My sibling has a doctorate in liberal arts (teaches at a university and publishes papers) and reads quite a bit and has said similar things on how this aids in critical thinking. They're great in some discussions, but all technology is essentially magic and math is complete gobblegook to this individual. This isn't to say they aren't smart and don't add value to society, but the…

Basic numerical literacy is important for everyone, but it is no exaggeration to say that moral, political and philosophical (and that includes the philosophy of science) development also separates us from far more primitive creatures over centuries. To me it makes equally as much sense to say that all that development is closed off to engineers (and I say this as someone finishing up an engineering degree myself).

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#89
post #79
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, yet there should still be more social studies people in power at tech companies.

A major in philosophy is not required to have a conscience.

You can have the best intentions and cause tremendous harm to the world.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#90
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you're not wrong. That's the whole point behind a specialized workforce. The whole point to modern society is individuals focus on something and do it, really, really well. We then suffer doing other stuff competently. Other than the occasional hobby gardener, how many tech engineers know how to maintain a vegetable garden? I've asked this to a few people before. They just imagine it's as simple as throwing s…

The whole ideology of capitalist society is that you're supposed to be able to pursue whatever goal you'd like, that you accept the consequences of that decision, and that there is no common good by which individuals should be directed, at least by force. Now I don't think that's the case, obviously, but that's the ideological line. Thus the creation of an "army" of structural engineers would involve some level of co…

While I can't speak for other commenters, I wonder if we aren't speaking past each other a bit.

I don't think anyone should be coerced into a field of study and I'm not sure if the "army" quote from the other poster should be taken literally. I read it as you should make sure society has enough in that basket to maximize welfare for all, but I could be interpreting them poorly.

When I hear arguments for STEM, what I and many others generally mean is that the pie-chart for things studied in school (Math, Language, Literature, History, Geography, PE, Sociology, Science, Art, Religion, Music...etc) should be tweaked a bit to where the Math, Science, and Technology subsections are bigger. If that means reducing the rest of the courses by some small percentage in order to do so, then so be it. Note that I'm not talking about eliminating anything entirely.

Regardless of chosen profession, I can't think of anyone who wouldn't be better off by being more scientifically and mathematically literate. At this point you might ask if the same couldn't be said for other subjects like music and I would disagree. Although all learning and knowledge should generally be considered a blessing, scientific reasoning is a force multiplier. Think of all the ignorance regarding vaccines, climate science...etc.

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