Live data from Hacker News

The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

spectrum.ieee.org

51–60 of 108 posts

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#51

The local schools here now call it STEAM, include in "Arts" and now say: >"It will include subjects like history, social studies, and language arts, all of which are vital facets of a STEAM curriculum." and now STEM has no meaning anymore (if it ever did). These are all fine subjects, but they miss the point of the push for STEM that was based on the theory that Americans are falling behind in Math, Science, and Engi…

I have literally been saying just this for years when someone says "STEAM". At that point, it is just school again. I agree that History, Art, Music, Literature, Philosophy...etc are important and can't imagine a world without them, but the whole point behind STEM was to put a focus on Math and Science because those help us keep our economic edge and solve the world's upcoming problems on the technical side. Providin…

It turns out that those solutions STEM folks have to technical problems have created a whole host of social problems. The pendulum needs to swing the other way.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#52
The constant talk about sexism, racism, ageism, etc in our industry almost completely disproves "STEM shortage" argument.

If such people exist, it won't be long before someone realizes they can hire these people cheaply because they are less in demand. Undercutting your labor costs gives a massive competitive advantage bringing products to market. There are thousands of startups every year started by a very wide variety of people from widely different backgrounds.

Ageism is a particularly good canary in the coalmine. If someone has decades of relevant experience and you can't find anyone, why wouldn't you hire them and if they've worked for your company for years and know all the subsystems well, why would you ever think of firing them and hiring someone else?

This frivolous misuse of human capital shows that overall, there must certainly be a surplus of talent rather than a deficit.

A great counterpoint to prove this is/was the web boom. Web talent used to be priced at $50-60K because such people were everywhere. Once Javascript became fast and highly-interactive websites and web apps became hugely in demand, a localized deficit started.

The reason for the localized deficit is obvious, but worth reiterating. The development tools and language were considered frustrating to learn and use by other programmers. There was a "not a real dev" stigma. IE and other cross-platform issues were hard to deal with. Powered by the new, fast JS engines, a glut of new APIs surfaced which led to another glut of CSS features -- all taking almost super-human effort to keep up with. Complicating this, most frontend developers up to that point didn't have strong programming skills, so you had either experienced programmers or knowledgeable frontend developers with a very small overlap.

The result has been to hire everyone. In 2010-2015 especially, if you had 50 people apply, probably only one person qualified (and if you found two, it was worth considering hiring them both). With real choices being that limited, companies simply cannot afford to waste time to market trying to find a candidate that "is the right fit" or whatever the BS "ism" label is in that area. Even people with no programming experience outside of a couple months of "boot camp" have a chance at getting hired.

As time has gone by, that drought has become at least mostly slaked. Companies can be a little pickier about whom they hire and wages have mostly stabilized at a bit over average programmer rates (which seems to account for the extra troubles of frontend development over most other types of programming).

I'm betting that once the current tech bubble bursts and wages plummet, we'll still keep hearing about the shortage of programmers who will work for $40K per year.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#53

Slightly off topic, but I feel like when people talk of STEM as a lucrative field of study, they tend to imply CS. Non-CS STEM field hardly have a shortage of qualified and talented people. In fact, there's probably a oversupply compared to job prospects in non-CS STEM fields. I see so many talented Math/Physics majors end up switching to CS and do mundane software engineering work.

There’s plenty of engineering jobs besides CS that pay very well.

They may pay well but most non-computer engineering grads I know end up in software because that's all that was available.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#54

The only people who honestly think there are a shortage of stem workers are those who aren't in stem.

I am in STEM and I honestly think there's a shortage of smart STEM workers, because not every person trained or experienced in STEM is someone I would hire. Ask around, you'll find quite a few people like me.

That's like saying there's a shortage of good STEM jobs because I wouldn't take any STEM job out there.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#55
The current STEM efforts do seem to be filling a need, but I do feel that this is going to lag and overshoot the market. Education needs to have good fundamentals and not only crank out grads for software as a trade.

Same thing happened when the telephone got popular and the demand for switchboard operators exploded. "At this rate, everyone's going to have to be a switchboard operator." Then they added dialers to phones. We just need better spreadsheets.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#56

The local schools here now call it STEAM, include in "Arts" and now say: >"It will include subjects like history, social studies, and language arts, all of which are vital facets of a STEAM curriculum." and now STEM has no meaning anymore (if it ever did). These are all fine subjects, but they miss the point of the push for STEM that was based on the theory that Americans are falling behind in Math, Science, and Engi…

I have literally been saying just this for years when someone says "STEAM". At that point, it is just school again. I agree that History, Art, Music, Literature, Philosophy...etc are important and can't imagine a world without them, but the whole point behind STEM was to put a focus on Math and Science because those help us keep our economic edge and solve the world's upcoming problems on the technical side. Providin…

Two points: it seems a little grotesque to be focusing on creating people trained in STEM solely for the purpose of keeping an "economic edge", as if they were troops that we need to keep us safe, and university students are some kind of army we need to train, and secondly more and more ethical and cultural issues due to what STEM students go on to create have come to light recently, and training in critical thinking, philosophy and even art may help with that - though in a way that also seems wrong-headed: to encourage people to pick humanities subjects to help the people who picked STEM subjects not be unethical. It's Kafkaesque.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#57
post #25

The local schools here now call it STEAM, include in "Arts" and now say: >"It will include subjects like history, social studies, and language arts, all of which are vital facets of a STEAM curriculum." and now STEM has no meaning anymore (if it ever did). These are all fine subjects, but they miss the point of the push for STEM that was based on the theory that Americans are falling behind in Math, Science, and Engi…

It has no meaning but it's more inclusive.

That's exactly why they do it!

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#58
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and yet those in the life sciences who took a more practical path, for example, nurses, are both well paid and in high demand.

Well paid nurses? Which country would that be?

I know in America, in Colorado and Florida, nurses are in demand and paid pretty well. From the people I know, ~$60k+ with a 2 year degree. They're also generally happy with their jobs. They might bounce from one hospital to another for a year or two until they find the company and bosses they like. Then they hunker down. But each one I know had recruiters help place them.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have literally been saying just this for years when someone says "STEAM". At that point, it is just school again. I agree that History, Art, Music, Literature, Philosophy...etc are important and can't imagine a world without them, but the whole point behind STEM was to put a focus on Math and Science because those help us keep our economic edge and solve the world's upcoming problems on the technical side. Providin…

Two points: it seems a little grotesque to be focusing on creating people trained in STEM solely for the purpose of keeping an "economic edge", as if they were troops that we need to keep us safe, and university students are some kind of army we need to train, and secondly more and more ethical and cultural issues due to what STEM students go on to create have come to light recently, and training in critical thinking…

The idea that US high schools provide a liberal arts education when colleges increasing find themselves unwilling or unable to is a fantasy. The STEM focus was born out of the inadequate secondary education. Those same inadequacies exist in liberal arts education.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s plenty of engineering jobs besides CS that pay very well.

They may pay well but most non-computer engineering grads I know end up in software because that's all that was available.

I really think you’re just living in a bubble. I know many recently graduated non-CS engineers who stepped straight into high salaries in their fields. Civil, mechanical, structural, aerospace, petroleum, acoustic, chemical, material, biomed, marine, geological... There are literally hundreds of different specialised engineering disciplines, and so many of them are high-demand and high-paid. Don’t get all your information about the world from SF job listings.
Post reply on HN