Live data from Hacker News

Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

huffingtonpost.com

91–100 of 131 posts

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because of some sicko's fantasy. No, he suffered through a hell-filled life because of some sicko's _actions_.

OK, agreed. And did that guy just get up one day and decide to do this out of the blue? No way -- he fantasized about it first. Thoughts lead to actions -- it's always worked that way. Granted, not ALL thoughts lead to ALL actions, but no action ever happened before the thought. Encouraging or feeding a _destructive_ fantasy doesn't have any positive outcomes (neutral at best).

> no action ever happened before the thought.

What about 'crimes of passion'?

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#92
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that is not at all what he said. Actually, nobody said that. The assertion is that when you consider suicide, you have your reasons and those reasons are a product of your environment. A chance to see yourself in a completely new environment, for instance in a desperate area of the world where human help - any help - is needed can give you a whole new experience and give you the nudge you need to re-evaluate your…

I disagree completely with what you said. It trivializes the personal pain that depressed people feel. But let's explore your reasoning further: Can you please explain to me how sending Bill Zeller to a war-torn country would have helped him deal with the sexual abuse that he experienced?

Well, it could hardly have ended much worse than it did right now, could it?

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#93
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

faith in tandem with reason That's a contradiction. faith.. is necessary in the acquisition of all meaningful knowledge. I strongly disagree. Believe me, I've looked into it.

I agree with cookiecaper. I've never seen mars. I believe (blindly) that the books, pictures and lectures I've seen are real, and that other people's pronouncements (from NASA, etc) are real too, so I believe (ie have blind faith) that mars is real. I _assume_ (ie have faith) that I could do some research and become a little more sure. Heck, that goes for atoms, electricity, just about everything. All I KNOW (without…

You haven't seen Mars? Really? It's often visible in the sky at night.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#94
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that is not at all what he said. Actually, nobody said that. The assertion is that when you consider suicide, you have your reasons and those reasons are a product of your environment. A chance to see yourself in a completely new environment, for instance in a desperate area of the world where human help - any help - is needed can give you a whole new experience and give you the nudge you need to re-evaluate your…

I disagree completely with what you said. It trivializes the personal pain that depressed people feel. But let's explore your reasoning further: Can you please explain to me how sending Bill Zeller to a war-torn country would have helped him deal with the sexual abuse that he experienced?

I think that, for people beyond a certain threshold on the path to suicide, putting them in a situation where basic needs are not as readily fulfilled, and where death is prevalent and imminent... is a GOOD option.

Suicide rates are the highest in the happiest countries. One hypothesis is that sad people constantly surrounded by happy people are driven to remove themselves from society. Bill might have fit well in that kind of new environment. Presumably, he was anhedonic, so giving up the comforts of the West would not have been such a shock.

The point would not be to encourage comparisons with others' circumstances, and realize "how good he has it". Such comparisons are worthless anyway, as someone with worse circumstances might be at peace, while someone much better off might be in the same kind of turmoil.

Rather, going to such a place would allow for picking up coping strategies while removing certain pressures. People in America have an unaccepting attitude towards tragedy, and this may have made Bill Zeller feel like an outcast. We're all constantly force-fed an image of health, wealth, and well-being. It's hard to forget that this was not the set point for most human beings in history. Life can be gruesome in ways that are hard to imagine, and we are insulated from that.

There are countries where it's OK to have negative circumstances, and it's OK to be sidelined by them. If I had my arm amputated tomorrow, my social life would be significantly disrupted. If lived in a place like India, my missing limb would make much less of a difference.

And 3 months is not a long time to wait, if you've been miserable for 27 years. According to the original suggestion, no one would be trying to talk you out of it. He would still be free to kill himself, preserving his right to die in a manner of his choosing.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#95
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fallacy that could not be used if Muslims openly and harshly criticised their fundamentalist brothers, instead of remaining silent and ocasionally nodding in agreement when others are described as unworthy, because that feeling is most fundamental and hardest to overcome. The core of what binds people together is the united enemy and appeals to hating the enemy are easy. At least they have the excuse that most of t…

Thanks for making my point for me. Yep. That's one thing that could make things better for American Muslims. If they'd just change their behavior, just a little bit.

American Muslims are a minority, who can hardly be expected to change the public perception of 'Islam', which depends on what millions of foreign Muslims say or do. Those foreign Muslims have a hard time being moderate and because of that my appeal to Christians does not equally apply to them. The American Christian majority has both power and freedom of speech. They're just not using it efficiently to shut down the blowhards that keep hijacking 'Christianity'.

I admit it's a fine line between what I'm trying to argue and the 'guilt by association' fallacy, but the difference is the answer to the question: how responsible is a powerful majority subgroup for taking action against the minority leading the group, when the majority subgroup is suffering from that leadership, because members of the majority subgroup are being held accountable for opinions and decisions of the leadership that they don't even agree with? Humans use fallacious reasoning and pointing that out doesn't change a thing about that. Taking away the origin of the fallacy does change a thing and makes the world a bit better. I'm not committting the fallacy in my argument: I'm just pointing out that others will commit the fallacy, which is an unchangeable fact of human nature the majority subgroup should better acknowledge.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really get what you find disrespectful. Religious people generally believe that death is just a transition into a different plane. Why shouldn't a religious person be able to represent this in a comment? For the record, I read the note, and there's nothing in it that would make it inappropriate to leave a comment like "hope he is happy now" or whatever. Even if he asked people not to say this about his death,…

The problem here is that these things are not disrespectful for individual Christians to say, but they are inappropriate for Christians 'as a group' to say. The group should stfu and take a long hard look at their shortcomings as a group. You don't get to address this guys death in your religious way, if you don't address the religious ways that caused his death. If there is anyone in the position to get fundamentali…

> "I don't hear them speak out against, on religious grounds, against the extreme, religiously inspired, stuff that gets shouted around by national celebrities"

Moderate Christians pretty routinely criticize Christian extremists, just like moderate agnostic/atheists routinely criticize their extremists. Last time Pat Robertson made a stupid comment that I heard about, about a third of my Christian friends on facebook used direct quotes of the Bible to contradict him, and nobody said anything in support of him.

If you live in a bubble, you only see the other side's extremists, and therefore come to the mistaken belief that their moderates are silent or nonexistent. The solution is not to criticize the moderates for being insufficiently loud; it's to spend more time actually listening to the moderates.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#97
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for making my point for me. Yep. That's one thing that could make things better for American Muslims. If they'd just change their behavior, just a little bit.

American Muslims are a minority, who can hardly be expected to change the public perception of 'Islam', which depends on what millions of foreign Muslims say or do. Those foreign Muslims have a hard time being moderate and because of that my appeal to Christians does not equally apply to them. The American Christian majority has both power and freedom of speech. They're just not using it efficiently to shut down the…

Guilt by association is guilt by association however you choose to wield it. Have the last word, if you'd like.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like my other account is any less anonymous? (didn't realize I was signed in with this account). Journalistic convention is more related to the topic?? We've just found out about someone that suffered through a hell-filled life because of some sicko's fantasy. I'd hope we would try and figure out a way to spare others the same aweful fate.

> because of some sicko's fantasy. No, he suffered through a hell-filled life because of some sicko's _actions_.

Well, in fairness, religious people seem to have difficulty telling apart fantasies from reality...

After all, that is what faith is, a strong belief that your fantasies are real.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because of some sicko's fantasy. No, he suffered through a hell-filled life because of some sicko's _actions_.

OK, agreed. And did that guy just get up one day and decide to do this out of the blue? No way -- he fantasized about it first. Thoughts lead to actions -- it's always worked that way. Granted, not ALL thoughts lead to ALL actions, but no action ever happened before the thought. Encouraging or feeding a _destructive_ fantasy doesn't have any positive outcomes (neutral at best).

Oh, this is such a great argument for thought crimes! Because most crimes occur after somebody thinks of them, we should ban any thought (and by implication this includes any depiction) of any crime!

I'm sure that will work out great.

But it is hardly surprising that a religious person came up with this, given that most sins are already thought crimes.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#100
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Way to go HN. Instant downvote due to violent disagreement with an unpopular sentiment, not because the poster failed to add anything to the discussion. I don't think it's a failure to contribute to point out that rational people( and here we would presume that brilliant programmers are generally rational )would conduct their lives and solve their problems rationally. Physical trauma that occurred and ended 20 years…

Or perhaps the poster is being downvoted for the cruel and sloppy generalization, just like the one you just made. Exactly what does this contribute? Brilliant programmers are "presumed" to be rational; suicide is an irrational act; therefore... what? "Physical trauma that occurred and ended 20 years ago is not the kind of thing a rational mind would choose suicide as a solution to." Childhood sexual abuse is not the…

> suicide is an irrational act

Even this is very arguable, there are plenty of perfectly rational reasons for suicide.

Post reply on HN