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Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

bighospitality.co.uk

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Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#271

Post by jonfw »

taffer wrote: post #216
jonfw wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because I don't think it's unethical to produce life in that circumstance, doesn't mean that I think it's your ethical imperative to produce life. Things don't go immediately from unethical to a moral imperative, there is a substantial gap that needs to be crossed.

So why do we inseminate animals artificially when there is no ethical imperative to produce life? And if you think life is so valuable by nature, why do we kill them then?

The primary motivation to our livestock farming is certainly the utility, not some sort of ethical imperative. My argument isn't that it's virtuous to farm livestock, my argument is just that it isn't unethical.

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#272

Post by jonfw »

nojvek wrote: post #237
Relys wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The question really comes down to whether or not you consider the opportunity to experience life, even a particularly difficult life, as a blessing." A life born of slavery, torture, and slaughter is not a life worth living. An animal doesn't really have the idea of a bloodline or legacy (just the primal urge to reproduce). The rationalization that a life of suffering is somehow doing the animal a favor is just asin…

I guess that's how the slaveowners thought back in the day too.

It is recklessly ignorant to compare ownership of animals to humans

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#273

Post by thorwasdfasdf »

strict9 wrote: post #16

After 15 years of not eating meat, the past 1-2 years have been a golden era of vegetarian options in the grocery store, restaurants, and fast food. Based on anecdotes and my social circles, the number of people completely avoiding meat hasn't changed. But omnivores adopting a semi-veg lifestyle has increased. If I had to pick one thing, I'd say environmental concerns are the main reason my omnivore friends and colle…

I've definately been eating less meat, but not for environmental/ethical concerns. I do it because of Health concerns.

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#274

Post by SamReidHughes »

nojvek wrote: post #235
yters wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should we sterilize animals in the wild since they suffer too, possibly even more than animals in captivity?

why would animals in wild suffer more than in captivity? In captivity animals go through hell, tiny living spaces, shit and eat in same place, hormones injected, little freedom. Tons of videos on youtube if you feel like watching some gore. It's not about taking suffering away. Animals born in the wild live their life naturally. Animals created by us in farms are raised for one thing, for human consumption. If an ani…

Many cat adoption centers won't let people adopt cats if they'll let them outside. And those cats are living a better life than squirrels. I disagree with that, but the way I'd put it is, eating wild animals (modulo overfishing) is unquestionably morally right, but with captured animals, well, you noted that they're injected with hormones. That doesn't make the animals unhappy. I think you should concentrate on what the animal's mental state is, and not get distracted by aesthetics.

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#275

Post by Mikeb85 »

okmokmz wrote: post #208
Mikeb85 wrote: post #68

As interesting as this is, it's just the takeaway sector. As someone in the higher-end restaurant sector, I certainly haven't seen increased demand for vegan options. It also doesn't help that many vegans are very price sensitive, not to mention have a disproportionate amount of other dietary restrictions.

>many vegans are very price sensitive, not to mention have a disproportionate amount of other dietary restrictions Price sensitive as in not willing to pay as much as traditional customers? In my experience vegans tend to pay more for their food, as many of them look for local produce, fair trade, organic, etc. which drives the price up. I'd also be curious to learn what other dietary restrictions they may have. Asid…

The average amount spent per person in our restaurant is over $100.

Never seen a vegan restaurant at that price point. Have had vegans complain that a $15 cauliflower appetizer is too expensive however.

Edit - vegans also tend to restrict their diets further such as raw vegans, 'whole' food vegans, oil avoidance is a thing in the community, as is gluten free.

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#276

Post by rhn_mk1 »

yters wrote: post #239
rhn_mk1 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to the existence question depends on what you consider to be more valuable: life or suffering. As to the second question, that is an active topic of research: https://foundational-research.org/the-importance-of-wild-ani... with some info on Wikipedia as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_animal_suffering#Ecology_...

If avoiding suffering is categorically more important than living, then since all living things suffer, the logical conclusion is that all life should be wiped out. From my perspective, the conclusion seems to be wrong, and thus I deny the first premise.

The question can be formulated in a couple of ways: how much suffering outweighs the benefits of living?

Or, is there an amount of happiness that outweighs some amount of suffering? Among utilitarians, that's one of the major differences.

Your argument is valid and has been made before, and the answers are varied:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_utilitarianism#The_be...

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#277

Post by rhn_mk1 »

jonfw wrote: post #207
taffer wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question really comes down to whether or not you consider the opportunity to experience life, even a particularly difficult life, as a blessing. This seems to be an extreme pro-life point of view. You could ask exactly the same question about contraceptives.

Just because I don't think it's unethical to produce life in that circumstance, doesn't mean that I think it's your ethical imperative to produce life. Things don't go immediately from unethical to a moral imperative, there is a substantial gap that needs to be crossed.

> Things don't go immediately from unethical to a moral imperative, there is a substantial gap that needs to be crossed.

I would accept that in the general case, but since you let your utilitarian views slip, I have to ask: what's the difference?

When something is immoral, it means it has a negative utility, and therefore it should be avoided. When something is moral, it has a positive utility, and therefore it's something that should be strived for, barring any other activity with greater utility. In my eyes, that makes every moral thing a utilitarian's moral imperative, with the only gap being things that have no moral value.

How does my view differ from yours?

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#278

Post by taffer »

jonfw wrote: post #271
taffer wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why do we inseminate animals artificially when there is no ethical imperative to produce life? And if you think life is so valuable by nature, why do we kill them then?

The primary motivation to our livestock farming is certainly the utility, not some sort of ethical imperative. My argument isn't that it's virtuous to farm livestock, my argument is just that it isn't unethical.

You said: > it seems to me that it is less ideal from the perspective of the animal for their entire bloodline to be terminated

I think if you compare the utility that livestock farming provides, with all the externalties and all the suffering it produces is indeed unethical.

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#279

Post by okmokmz »

cferr wrote: post #249
phonypc wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the opposite of reality in my experience. Most vegetables can be quickly steamed, boiled, stir fried etc. Legumes or tubers take longer, but require little active participation. Meat on the other hand is greatly benefited by things like marination, mechanical tenderizing, monitoring temperature as it cooks. You can whip up a steak pretty quick, but probably not any faster than you could stir fry some veggies.

If we're talking steak in particular, it's going to be faster than any palatable vegetable based dish every time. Total cook time is about five minutes, and prep is less than a minute. Also in particular, stir frying isn't a great example of a vegetable preparation which is fast. Prep is usually at least twice the amount of time as the frying. Peanut butter celery sticks would be a better example I think.

>If we're talking steak in particular, it's going to be faster than any palatable vegetable based dish every time. Total cook time is about five minutes

Maybe with very thin, low quality grocery store steaks. When I eat meat I buy steaks from a butcher that are over an inch thick, and require 5-7 minutes minimum per side for medium rare. Sometimes even more for thicker cuts

>prep is less than a minute. Also in particular, stir frying isn't a great example of a vegetable preparation which is fast. Prep is usually at least twice the amount of time as the frying.

A lot of people think vegetables are difficult because they don't have knife skills so it takes multiple minutes to cut a piece of produce. With practice, prep for cooking vegetables should be just as fast. Also, even if it does take an extra couple minutes of my time, its worth it for my own health and morals by not supporting industrialized farming

Re: Vegan takeaway orders quadruple over past two years

#280

Post by danans »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #110
i_am_nomad wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don’t mind me asking, how did you become lactose intolerant? I don’t know much about that aspect of biology.

You don’t become lactose intolerant; you become lactose tolerant via genetic mutation. This is a mutation that originated in Northern Europe but not in east or South Asia.

This study suggests that tolerance is around 18% in South Asia, and that it originated in the Middle-east, not Europe:

https://sciencelife.uchospitals.edu/2011/09/14/lactose-toler...

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