Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way • Hacker News Board

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#51

Post by inimino » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 10:46 AM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #49

dumbfoundded wrote: post #9

Just an anecdote. I went to Beijing to watch the Olympics while I was in high school. During a volleyball game, I sat next to a local Chinese boy about my age and started talking with him. Apparently, at some Chinese schools, they give all of the students an English name. Kind of like how American schools give you a Spanish name for Spanish class. His name was Adolf. I asked him if he knew any other famous Adolf's. O…

> I don't think my sample size is representative but I think it's a warning of how strong nationalism can be Unfortunately, that's the kind of things you can hear anywhere in the world. > I imagine it's much stronger in China where the government actively encourages it. I wonder... I have a colleague of mine who grew up in a communism country. According to him, most people back then didn't really buy into government…

> on average less nationalist/warmonging than Americans

Less warmongering on average, but get them on the topic of Japan and things change. Vastly more nationalistic on average, and with a much larger population that is way more homogeneous in their politics and nationalism than you've ever seen anywhere in the US. Source: seven years in China.

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#52

Post by inimino » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 10:52 AM UTC

kccqzy wrote: post #10

Since I can read Chinese, I've been reading news coverage as well as opinions from both the English-speaking and the Chinese-speaking media. It is quite depressing to find that both sides are obviously biased. The Chinese news would emphasize isolated incidents of violence by the protesters during the protests, pontificate on it and publish op-eds analyzing the cause of the protests ranging from the failed economy of…

Fortunately with freedom of the press we're able to pick our news sources and many Chinese state-sponsored media are also published in English. I don't think Beijing's perspective is getting short shrift.

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#53

Post by yorwba » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 10:56 AM UTC

IIAOPSW wrote: post #27

kccqzy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can clarify. The "failed economy" narrative was mostly about the rising income inequality among Hong Kongers. The mainland news media is trying to portray Hong Kong as having a mismanaged economy so that these young people engaged in protests have seen very little increase in real income but face tremendous increase in cost of living. And they compare it unfavorably to the situation in mainland China where they cla…

I know exactly what you mean. I have a friend on wechat from my time living in China. It is remarkable for me to talk with this person. He's not at all the belligerent nationalist type nor the insufficiently critical news-bubble type. Yet even he finds the narrative pushed by the news to be compelling. It's been a stimulating exercise talking with him without falling down the rabbit hole of dismissing each others fac…

1.a Ask how much a protester is paid for participating. The number I've seen floating around is 3000 RMB. Then ask how much it costs to buy a million protesters. If they think that that's a reasonable amount, ask why they didn't simply buy every single Hong Konger for just slightly more. Hopefully they'll realize that most protesters aren't paid.

1.b The protesters' demands are all about changing the behavior of the local government. They have no reason to split from China unless the mainland government intervenes to prevent that change. As a bonus, consider that the current Hong Kong government is only in power due to the election system with functional constituencies put in place by the British to secure their grip on the city. In a way, China simply replaced Britain as the colonial power rather than freeing Hong Kong from colonialism. (On the other hand, this argument can backfire since Hong Kong would be even worse off if all former British institutions were replaced by their mainland equivalents.)

2. If all protesters were violent rioters, they'd have conquered Hong Kong by now. But the majority are peaceful and have even less power to stop the rioters than the police; whose indiscriminate use of tear gas and rubber bullets has hurt people who were either participating peacefully or just happened to be in the area. That's why they want an independent investigation of the police.

3. The economic situation may make them more likely to protest, but what they choose to protest is still something they care about.

Consider the protests that erupted at Nanjing School of Applied Technology in April [1], at Beijing Normal University's Zhuhai branch in June [2] or in Wuhan's Xinzhou district also in June [3]. Were those all for economic reasons? Also ask whether they were aware of these or any other protests.

[1] https://www.epochtimes.com/gb/19/4/28/n11220048.htm

[2] http://www.epochtimes.com/gb/19/6/11/n11315690.htm

[3] https://www.epochtimes.com/gb/19/7/4/n11363038.htm

(I'm linking to Epoch Times articles, but in each case you can find raw footage on YouTube searching for "南应", "北师珠", "武汉阳逻")

Finally, you should know that there just as you are here asking for help arguing with your Chinese friends, so are Chinese people asking on Zhihu for help arguing with their Western friends.

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#54

Post by ConfusedDog » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 10:58 AM UTC

archibaldJ wrote: post #36

Nationalism aside as a Chinese citizen I believe all educated Chinese citizens should be grateful to the protesters in Hong Kong for the sole reason that these protesters are directly challenging the CCP (which is an extremely rare thing to happen in this day and age without the direct involvement of another superpower). It may be wishful thinking but I believe through direct confrontation like this CCP will learn an…

Only if HK didn’t protest against mainland tourists before. A lot of them has strong prejudice against mainland Chinese making it easy for Chinese government spin the people against these protesters.

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#55

Post by IIAOPSW » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 11:02 AM UTC

iiuytrty wrote: post #45

IIAOPSW wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any element of truth in the "failed economy" narrative. That's one angle that we really can get to the truth of without any media bias. Are there any econometrics published from before the protests started that would indicate an economic cause? I haven't seen any but I also haven't looked hard enough to reject the premise.

Compare Hong Kong to Macau. They are in the same position, - Colonized by a European country and then returned to China, - Under one country, two systems - Speak Cantonese but Macau’s GDP per person is almost double that of Hong Kong. There are no protests in Macau.

Hong Kong has over triple the GDP per person as mainland China. If the relevant predictor is GDP per person, why isn't mainland China experiencing civil unrest?

If the answer is GDP growth rates, Macau has an insane boom-bust cycle with -20% growth in 2015. Why wasn't there civil unrest there in 2015?

If the answer is a more complicated combination of indicators and trends, you're going to have to spell it.

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#56

Post by mcny » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 11:05 AM UTC

inimino wrote: post #51

yodsanklai wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think my sample size is representative but I think it's a warning of how strong nationalism can be Unfortunately, that's the kind of things you can hear anywhere in the world. > I imagine it's much stronger in China where the government actively encourages it. I wonder... I have a colleague of mine who grew up in a communism country. According to him, most people back then didn't really buy into government…

> on average less nationalist/warmonging than Americans Less warmongering on average, but get them on the topic of Japan and things change. Vastly more nationalistic on average, and with a much larger population that is way more homogeneous in their politics and nationalism than you've ever seen anywhere in the US. Source: seven years in China.

I got the same anti Japan vibe talking to thirty plus years old postgraduates from China but as I expressed to them I was hopeful that the younger generation would be kinder. Doesn't look like that's happening soon enough.

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#57

Post by mcny » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 11:07 AM UTC

ConfusedDog wrote: post #54

archibaldJ wrote: post #36

Nationalism aside as a Chinese citizen I believe all educated Chinese citizens should be grateful to the protesters in Hong Kong for the sole reason that these protesters are directly challenging the CCP (which is an extremely rare thing to happen in this day and age without the direct involvement of another superpower). It may be wishful thinking but I believe through direct confrontation like this CCP will learn an…

Only if HK didn’t protest against mainland tourists before. A lot of them has strong prejudice against mainland Chinese making it easy for Chinese government spin the people against these protesters.

» Only if HK didn’t protest against mainland tourists before.

Well yeah. China PR wants to pack Hong Kong with han people. This is no secret. They did the same with Tibet as well.

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#58

Post by yorwba » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 11:23 AM UTC

mcny wrote: post #57

ConfusedDog wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if HK didn’t protest against mainland tourists before. A lot of them has strong prejudice against mainland Chinese making it easy for Chinese government spin the people against these protesters.

» Only if HK didn’t protest against mainland tourists before. Well yeah. China PR wants to pack Hong Kong with han people. This is no secret. They did the same with Tibet as well.

Hong Kong is packed with Han people. Hong Kongers are not ethnically different from other Cantonese.

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#59

Post by hos234 » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 11:36 AM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #48

dragonelite wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what i gathered 140 million mainlanders travel abroad each year. and 140 million mainlanders return to China. That tells you enough people vote with their feets, wallet and voice.

What do they see when they travel abroad though? A large portion (if not a majority?) of those 140 million travelers go through organized tour groups, where they jump from attraction to attraction, staying half an hour or so to take pictures before rushing back to the bus to head to the next stop. This French photographer was allowed to join such a group and it's fascinating: http://www.slate.fr/grand-format/touriste…

Learning takes time.

I had an Indian coworker once who freaked out at the airport because the cab driver was black. This was his first trip ever out of his small town in India (late 90s). He was carrying a bit of cash and was worried he was going to have his throat slit. By the time I worked out the reasons for the panic attack, he had already cheesed of the cab guy. When there is a culture clash, these kind of misunderstandings can happen so easily and spiral out of control fast.

The regimented guided tours isn't a bad thing as a first step. I have a lot of Chinese friends who are way past that "first contact" phase who are well traveled and know much more about the world than I do. It just takes time.

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#60

Post by IIAOPSW » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 11:41 AM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #53

IIAOPSW wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know exactly what you mean. I have a friend on wechat from my time living in China. It is remarkable for me to talk with this person. He's not at all the belligerent nationalist type nor the insufficiently critical news-bubble type. Yet even he finds the narrative pushed by the news to be compelling. It's been a stimulating exercise talking with him without falling down the rabbit hole of dismissing each others fac…

1.a Ask how much a protester is paid for participating. The number I've seen floating around is 3000 RMB. Then ask how much it costs to buy a million protesters. If they think that that's a reasonable amount, ask why they didn't simply buy every single Hong Konger for just slightly more. Hopefully they'll realize that most protesters aren't paid. 1.b The protesters' demands are all about changing the behavior of the…

>Finally, you should know that there just as you are here asking for help arguing with your Chinese friends, so are Chinese people asking on Zhihu for help arguing with their Western friends.

Well the more the merrier. So long as the discussion is in the basis of sound arguments and not who can spam/upvote more, adding more people will only increase the quality.

In fact I wouldn't even call what I am doing arguing, as I haven't actually offered any position of my own on the protest and therefore have nothing to defend (yet). I guess you could call what I'm doing "hypothesis testing the Chinese state media narratives" (aka "calling bullshit").

Thanks for the links and ideas.