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Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

chinafile.com

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Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#41

Post by sersi »

kccqzy wrote: post #23
IIAOPSW wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any element of truth in the "failed economy" narrative. That's one angle that we really can get to the truth of without any media bias. Are there any econometrics published from before the protests started that would indicate an economic cause? I haven't seen any but I also haven't looked hard enough to reject the premise.

I can clarify. The "failed economy" narrative was mostly about the rising income inequality among Hong Kongers. The mainland news media is trying to portray Hong Kong as having a mismanaged economy so that these young people engaged in protests have seen very little increase in real income but face tremendous increase in cost of living. And they compare it unfavorably to the situation in mainland China where they cla…

Well, the problem is that the same could be said for Shanghai. Talk to any taxi drivers in Shanghai and ask what they think of the economy nowadays, same for people working in unskilled jobs, the gap is so big that it's extremely difficult for them to make a living. This was not the case 15 years ago but the gap has only increased since then with costs of living increasing faster than salaries for unskilled labors increased.

It is definitely a problem in Hong Kong and the rise of real estates prices definitely factors into that but isn't it partly also the Chinese government's fault which has increased immigration from mainland China to Hong Kong resulting in much higher real estates prices since the supply is constrained due to the small area Hong Kong occupies?

However, a lot of people protesting are also professionals who are making a decent living and are not only doing it for economic reasons

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#42

Post by apexalpha »

dumbfoundded wrote: post #9

Just an anecdote. I went to Beijing to watch the Olympics while I was in high school. During a volleyball game, I sat next to a local Chinese boy about my age and started talking with him. Apparently, at some Chinese schools, they give all of the students an English name. Kind of like how American schools give you a Spanish name for Spanish class. His name was Adolf. I asked him if he knew any other famous Adolf's. O…

>Apparently, at some Chinese schools, they give all of the students an English name. Kind of like how American schools give you a Spanish name for Spanish class. His name was Adolf. I asked him if he knew any other famous Adolf's. Of course, he did.

I spent some time teaching English at a Chinese university and this just brought me back.

You see you can't just make up new words in Chinese like you can in Latin based languages. In English I could type "menseratanos" here and even though you have never seen it you can (at least try) to pronounce it based on the individual letters. But Chinese doesn't work this way since you can't make up a new Chinese sign and just expect people to know what it represents.

So to create names Chinese people combine existing words and end up with names native Americans used to have: "Grey wind", "Yellow sun", "Good Fortune" etc... Of course these all have more meaning to them in Chinese but you get the point. And therefor it is common to let Chinese people pick their own name for English class and... it is absolutely hilarious. Since they usually have as little exposure to the Western world as someone in the West has to the Chinese you will be left with a class named, and these are all real examples from my classes:

- Beyonce (for a boy).

- Vladimir

- Putin

- Vladimir Putin (would refuse to be called Vladimir or Putin).

- Fog (as in tiny water droplets)

- Adolf Hitler

- Justin Bieber

- Michael Jackson

- Morning (the time of day)

etc..

The Adolf Hitler kid I actually told to change it. When asked why he picked it he said: "he is great king". (after asking: he meant 'conqueror').

All in all living in China for a while is a fantastic experience.

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#43

Post by tremon »

kccqzy wrote: post #26
devoply wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well what truth do you want? China wants to extradite Hong Kong citizens to China to stand trial. Hong Kong citizens want autonomy. This is a classic David vs Goliath battle.

The protests did start because of the extradition bill, but the bill has been dead for more than a month[0], yet the protests have not stopped. Can you see that the protestors are protesting about something else now? If the bill were the protesters' goal, they had already succeeded. The situation is so much more complicated than just an ill-conceived bill. It doesn't help things when media (or other people) try to si…

No, the bill is not dead. It's in stasis, but can be revived any moment. Your own link even says so explicitly: She stopped short of saying it had been withdrawn completely

Because of both the bill and the initial response to the protests, the protesters are now asking for the government (governor?) to step down. I can't say I disagree.

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#44

Post by seanmcdirmid »

toxik wrote: post #37
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America supported both the KMT and communists, not to mention the soviets, during WW2. They didn’t really fall out with each other until the Korean War (at the start of which they decided to fully support the KMT after giving up on them after the war).

Could you imagine if China was under democratic rule, like Taiwan today? It really gives me a sinking feeling knowing that there was a better option, and it might have won if the Japanese hadn't attacked China, and if the Soviet hadn't been allowed to fuel the CCP. Such a historical misstep.

Chiang Kai Shek was no saint, he wasn’t pro democracy. USA pressure on Taiwan had a lot to do with how the island evolved after Chiang’s death (and his son happened to be a bit better than dad). Korea had a similar evolution, actually.

The soviets were involved in fueling both the CPC and KMT, actually, in the early days anyways. The KMT even got lots of help from Germany before they made an alliance with Japan.

While China would definitely be different, it’s not clear it would have been better.

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#45

Post by iiuytrty »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #16
kccqzy wrote: post #10

Since I can read Chinese, I've been reading news coverage as well as opinions from both the English-speaking and the Chinese-speaking media. It is quite depressing to find that both sides are obviously biased. The Chinese news would emphasize isolated incidents of violence by the protesters during the protests, pontificate on it and publish op-eds analyzing the cause of the protests ranging from the failed economy of…

I don't see any element of truth in the "failed economy" narrative. That's one angle that we really can get to the truth of without any media bias. Are there any econometrics published from before the protests started that would indicate an economic cause? I haven't seen any but I also haven't looked hard enough to reject the premise.

Compare Hong Kong to Macau.

They are in the same position, - Colonized by a European country and then returned to China, - Under one country, two systems - Speak Cantonese

but Macau’s GDP per person is almost double that of Hong Kong.

There are no protests in Macau.

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#47

Post by C1sc0cat »

zone411 wrote: post #15
lacampbell wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dictatorships need a lot less popular support than democracies. Of course once that popular support evaporates, the regime change is a lot messier than an election.

Venezuela is a good example.

I think Romania is a better one as an example of a dictatorship rapidly changing.

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#48

Post by GuiA »

dragonelite wrote: post #38
the_resistence wrote: post #2

Without all the facts, mainlanders will never be in a clear position to make a proper decision. That's how the system is designed.

From what i gathered 140 million mainlanders travel abroad each year. and 140 million mainlanders return to China. That tells you enough people vote with their feets, wallet and voice.

What do they see when they travel abroad though?

A large portion (if not a majority?) of those 140 million travelers go through organized tour groups, where they jump from attraction to attraction, staying half an hour or so to take pictures before rushing back to the bus to head to the next stop.

This French photographer was allowed to join such a group and it's fascinating:

http://www.slate.fr/grand-format/touristes-chinois-europe-je...

Choice quotes from the photographer (translated):

"Costs are cut on everything. For 10 days, we ate Chinese food for lunch and dinner. Before I started this project, I thought that tourists always ate Chinese food because they weren't curious. But cheap backroom cafeterias are imposed on them, where the meal (often inedible) costs 5 euros per person. We only took 10 minutes to eat, and I'd always be the last to finish. After Paris, we were supposed to sleep in the "French village" of Dijon [original is in quote because Dijon is a large city]. But the hotel was situated along the highway, at Sauvigny-sous-Bois [about an hour away from Dijon]. That night, with Lan, we decided to take two people to Relais Fleuri, a nice restaurant next to the hotel, without the guide, so they could discover French gastronomy. When we got back, the guide was really upset. The next day, I got an email from the agency saying that if it happened again, I'd be kicked out from the group."

"The majority of guides are not there to teach. When Chinese tourists go back home, they haven't learned much; in fact, stereotypes tend to be reinforced [...] a few of them complained about the [Chinese meals], and that they wouldn't visit markets, for instance, but those criticisms were very limited. It's a shame, because the only contact they have with French people is at the register, when they buy something."

"I was shocked by how resigned people were. You're not supposed to disagree with anything. The guide was considered like a boss whose orders had to be followed, and who should never be contradicted. Ours was 34 years old, and went into tourism for money. But he didn't know anything about Europe, and spent the whole time telling cliché anecdotes about cities. He even got monument names wrong! His only goal was to sell additional options, such as gondola rides, to get a bonus."

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#49

Post by yodsanklai »

dumbfoundded wrote: post #9

Just an anecdote. I went to Beijing to watch the Olympics while I was in high school. During a volleyball game, I sat next to a local Chinese boy about my age and started talking with him. Apparently, at some Chinese schools, they give all of the students an English name. Kind of like how American schools give you a Spanish name for Spanish class. His name was Adolf. I asked him if he knew any other famous Adolf's. O…

> I don't think my sample size is representative but I think it's a warning of how strong nationalism can be

Unfortunately, that's the kind of things you can hear anywhere in the world.

> I imagine it's much stronger in China where the government actively encourages it.

I wonder... I have a colleague of mine who grew up in a communism country. According to him, most people back then didn't really buy into government propaganda, which contrasts with modern democracies which rely on more subtle propaganda (Chomsky's "media control").

I really have no idea, it could well be that Chinese are on average less nationalist/warmonging than Americans for instance.

Re: Mainlanders don't all view Hong Kong the same way

#50

Post by keiferski »

iiuytrty wrote: post #45
IIAOPSW wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any element of truth in the "failed economy" narrative. That's one angle that we really can get to the truth of without any media bias. Are there any econometrics published from before the protests started that would indicate an economic cause? I haven't seen any but I also haven't looked hard enough to reject the premise.

Compare Hong Kong to Macau. They are in the same position, - Colonized by a European country and then returned to China, - Under one country, two systems - Speak Cantonese but Macau’s GDP per person is almost double that of Hong Kong. There are no protests in Macau.

Macau is a fraction of the size of Hong Kong. I don't really think it's a comparison worth making in any deep sense.

- GDP: Hong Kong 341.4 billion USD, Macau 50.36 billion USD

- Population: Hong Kong 7,392,000, Macau 622,567

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