This was a major plot point in Disney's Cars.
Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees
81–90 of 166 posts
Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
The first thing revenue collection funds is revenue collection. Then possibly more revenue collection. Asset forfeiture efforts dry up substantially when the money is returned to the general fund instead of the capturing agencies. Just imagine if they returned the revenue to the people.
"Just imagine if they returned the revenue to the people." Arguably that idea is what lead to the current situation in some cases.... As the article notes state legislatures cut local government funding, they limit how they can gather funds, probabbly under the idea that they're returning revenue to the people ... so the local government gathers funds the only way they can find it. And here we are.
> so the local government gathers funds the only way they can find it.
Because the local government is a bureaucracy, and the first motivation of a bureaucracy is the same as with any organism, self-preservation.
Rather than elections for sheriff and alderman, etc. there should be referenda every couple of years to dissolve the jurisdiction.
Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
The folks in charge get paid by the government and the amount the government is able to pay is highly dependent on the amount of funding it gets.
Small town government is student council with armed sheriffs. In the majority of these jurisdictions, the local government is not actually doing useful work towards a flourishing community, or perhaps to be fair, they aren't doing any useful work that couldn't be done more fairly and effectively at the state level.
>they aren't doing any useful work that couldn't be done more fairly and effectively at the state level.
Or equally fairly and effectively without having it officially orchestrated by the government.
Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees
#84Hell, I'd say that any town that leverages against the economically poor to benefit the economically elite is bad, and just going by the way fines are handed out, that happens everywhere. Only a handful of countries fine you by according to how much you make. While doing this can add an extra incentive for the rich to be dishonest (which happens anyway), by not doing it you are essentially telling the rich that they…
I'm from a country with so-called day fines: a fine is a multiplier of your daily earnings. It boggles my mind that a similar system isn't in use everywhere. It's easy to understand and fair to everyone; a deterrent against infractions independent of your income.
Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees
#85I'm genuinely surprised not to see any Rhode Island cities/towns on this. Speed cameras have shown up like a plague in Providence in the past year and are expected to spread throughout the state. https://www.wpri.com/news/providence-speed-cameras-were-a-mo...
This article is talking about fines as a proportion of overall revenue. In the Northeast they can fine the crap out of anything that moves and taxes revenues are still high enough (because there's so much expensive property, high incomes and other taxable stuff combined with decently high tax rates) that the fines are still not a significant percent of revenue.
Valid, and I don't know what the total fines are, but if the speed cameras alone netted 3.2 million last year it seems quite plausible that fines are accounting for 10% or more if I'm reading this report correctly http://www.providenceri.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Accou...
But you know, I'm not an accountant
Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you get caught for speeding in Michigan, the Golden rule is to always appeal the ticket. Unless you've been excessively reckless they'll typically knock it down to "impeding traffic" which carries a slightly higher fine (depending on your speed) but is not a moving violation and doesn't get reported to insurance. [1] > Impeding traffic is a civil infraction punishable by a fine. It is also considered a non-moving…
“Money making scheme” is putting it mildly. If they're offering to not tell your insurance company in exchange for paying a larger fine, I would describe that as “extortion.”
And especially favors the rich as they have the time and money to pay the government upfront, while the poor get to deal with higher insurance premiums.
Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees
#87Hell, I'd say that any town that leverages against the economically poor to benefit the economically elite is bad, and just going by the way fines are handed out, that happens everywhere. Only a handful of countries fine you by according to how much you make. While doing this can add an extra incentive for the rich to be dishonest (which happens anyway), by not doing it you are essentially telling the rich that they…
I'm from a country with so-called day fines: a fine is a multiplier of your daily earnings. It boggles my mind that a similar system isn't in use everywhere. It's easy to understand and fair to everyone; a deterrent against infractions independent of your income.
If it was independent to your income, then your income should not matter. The fine should be proportional to the infraction/crime/damage.
Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees
#88Government is "sticky". War taxes stick around long after the end of the war, and city bureaucracies stick around long after a city declines.
Nobody wants to accept that maybe a town of 5-20k people don't need 20-100 man police forces, and a far lower level of public services in general.
Nobody wants to admit they have to lower their standards of living in the face of adversity; instead we double-down on reproducing (or improving on) the standard of living of our forebears and thereby immiserate ourselves with the debts (or oppression in this case) needed to square that circle.
Even the most economically irrelevant areas of rural america have paved roads these days when they could simply have stuck with gravel, etc. In many ways we are trying to exceed the prior standard of living (progress!) all the while forgetting that the economic base of most of these places has either not improved or significantly worsened.
We all increase our standards of living at our own peril; one must save and capitalize first (which is actively punished by low interest rate policy). Taking this as a given, should we have expected any other outcome?
Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees
#89There are a few small towns in Minnesota where you will see an officer posted up right where the highway turns from 65mph to 45mph through town. They will be there almost all day, without fail. I don't think it's a coincidence that their cruisers are all brand new. It's obviously a source of income more than anything.
There aren't any Minnesota towns on the map in the article so it must not be more than 10%, presumably.
It is interesting to see some towns that are famous in my local area for it:
Morrison, CO (45.3%). 150,000 drivers pass through it daily, with a population of 431. It's hard to argue with as they stop people if they're going 15 MPH over the limit. [1] I think people here just get used to the lack of enforcement of the other cities.
Mountain View, CO is only 0.09 sq mi (0.24 km2), population ~528. Sandwiched between Denver and the next suburb over, writes more tickets combined than Denver, Boulder, and Aurora. A lot of the tickets are for things like seatbelts and cracked windshields [2].
[1] https://www.speedtrap.org/colorado/morrison/ Quote: "They got me going 41 in a 25. $135 ticket. They are making a killing by gouging people for no reason so beware!" LOL
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_View,_Colorado#Police...
Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees
#90If they are going to use minor violations of the law as a pretext for revenue collection, they should call it what it is: kleptocracy. If those places are dying out, it's probably best to let them turn into ghost towns because they have succumbed to corruption as a way of life.
> If they are going to use minor violations of the law as a pretext for revenue collection, they should call it what it is: kleptocracy.
Fancy word, there, son. 'round here we call it Dixie.