Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees • Hacker News Board

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#61

Post by SkyBelow » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

donatj wrote: post #27

I've always thought society would be better off if fines and money confiscated by police was redistributed as tax relief rather than going to the government or police department doing the confiscation. As it stands it only encourages abuse.

No one involved in levying the fine (or deciding what is fined or how large a fine is) can benefit if you want to remove the conflict of interest. Perhaps the best thing to do is stick it all in a fund for helping victims of crimes when the criminal doesn't have enough funds to cover damages to the person (but even that isn't great).

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#62

Post by motohagiography » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #19

motohagiography wrote: post #10

If they are going to use minor violations of the law as a pretext for revenue collection, they should call it what it is: kleptocracy. If those places are dying out, it's probably best to let them turn into ghost towns because they have succumbed to corruption as a way of life.

I think Kleptocracy would only apply if the folks in charge are funneling funds to themselves. If it is just what funds the government, that isn't a kleptocracy. Bad policy maybe, but not kleptocracy.

If that municipal or county government is operated by unionized public workers, including police, then the revenue collection is going primarily to pay that union, who in turn fund politicians who continue their revenue collection policies to pay their members. It's capture, so in effect, kleptocracy.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#63

Post by metalliqaz » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:54 PM UTC

xfitm3 wrote: post #52

madhadron wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only a handful of countries fine you by according to how much you make. Example: speeding tickets in Switzerland. A guy driving his Lamborghini through a village at 60mph had a ticket for several hundred thousand dollars handed to him while I was living there.

Which is bad.

For a billionaire, that's the same amount of bad as when I get a ticket for $60.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#64

Post by mikeash » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:54 PM UTC

porpoisemonkey wrote: post #50

AWildC182 wrote: post #22

This is especially annoying because for every dollar they collect, you can end up paying your insurance company 4+ times as much because they now think you're a terrible driver for getting these minor BS citations.

If you get caught for speeding in Michigan, the Golden rule is to always appeal the ticket. Unless you've been excessively reckless they'll typically knock it down to "impeding traffic" which carries a slightly higher fine (depending on your speed) but is not a moving violation and doesn't get reported to insurance. [1] > Impeding traffic is a civil infraction punishable by a fine. It is also considered a non-moving…

“Money making scheme” is putting it mildly. If they're offering to not tell your insurance company in exchange for paying a larger fine, I would describe that as “extortion.”

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#65

Post by mikepurvis » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:54 PM UTC

xfitm3 wrote: post #52

madhadron wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only a handful of countries fine you by according to how much you make. Example: speeding tickets in Switzerland. A guy driving his Lamborghini through a village at 60mph had a ticket for several hundred thousand dollars handed to him while I was living there.

Which is bad.

Why? Speeding kills. It seems reasonable to me that the ticket be proportional to your means, so you don't have a regressive effect where poor people are highly impacted and rich people laugh it off.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#66

Post by jandrewrogers » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:54 PM UTC

This is unfortunately and notoriously true. It is how relatively impoverished towns without a real tax base generate enough revenue to provide basic services. These fines are usually selectively applied to people from outside the area, so there is little adverse consequence for the townspeople. It works this way throughout the rural US, though easily avoided if you diligently pay attention to and comply with the signage when in those kinds of areas.

Insufficient local tax base for small towns is a problem throughout the world, with many diverse solutions. This is the evolved and ad hoc US flavored version in the absence of a top-down official solution.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#67

Post by duxup » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:55 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #62

duxup wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Kleptocracy would only apply if the folks in charge are funneling funds to themselves. If it is just what funds the government, that isn't a kleptocracy. Bad policy maybe, but not kleptocracy.

If that municipal or county government is operated by unionized public workers, including police, then the revenue collection is going primarily to pay that union, who in turn fund politicians who continue their revenue collection policies to pay their members. It's capture, so in effect, kleptocracy.

Under your description all government that pays someone(s) would qualify.

That's not what kleptocracy means.

>is going primarily to pay that union,

I don't think that is accurate.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#68

Post by jacobwilliamroy » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:55 PM UTC

Perhaps changing location in title from "the country" to "the U.S." would help international readers; some of whom have told me they feel annoyed because they need some acknowledgement that other countries exist.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#69

Post by behringer » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:55 PM UTC

xfitm3 wrote: post #52

madhadron wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only a handful of countries fine you by according to how much you make. Example: speeding tickets in Switzerland. A guy driving his Lamborghini through a village at 60mph had a ticket for several hundred thousand dollars handed to him while I was living there.

Which is bad.

Why? You know what happens to a rich Lambo owner when they owe the state 20 bucks? They hire their courier to speed to the post office at 60mph to deliver the check.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#70

Post by throwaway5752 » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

xfitm3 wrote: post #52

madhadron wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only a handful of countries fine you by according to how much you make. Example: speeding tickets in Switzerland. A guy driving his Lamborghini through a village at 60mph had a ticket for several hundred thousand dollars handed to him while I was living there.

Which is bad.

No it isn't. Handing a $100 fine to person X and person Y is ridiculous when person X makes minimal wage and person Y is a C level executive making $400K. Normalizing the fine to the median income and proportionate changing it by income level is equitable and fair. You can look for legal precedence in bail hearings, where wealth and flight risk are definitely and correctly taken into account.