Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees • Hacker News Board

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#51

Post by mikeash » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #19

motohagiography wrote: post #10

If they are going to use minor violations of the law as a pretext for revenue collection, they should call it what it is: kleptocracy. If those places are dying out, it's probably best to let them turn into ghost towns because they have succumbed to corruption as a way of life.

I think Kleptocracy would only apply if the folks in charge are funneling funds to themselves. If it is just what funds the government, that isn't a kleptocracy. Bad policy maybe, but not kleptocracy.

The folks in charge get paid by the government and the amount the government is able to pay is highly dependent on the amount of funding it gets.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#52

Post by xfitm3 » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

madhadron wrote: post #35

not_a_cop75 wrote: post #21

Hell, I'd say that any town that leverages against the economically poor to benefit the economically elite is bad, and just going by the way fines are handed out, that happens everywhere. Only a handful of countries fine you by according to how much you make. While doing this can add an extra incentive for the rich to be dishonest (which happens anyway), by not doing it you are essentially telling the rich that they…

> Only a handful of countries fine you by according to how much you make. Example: speeding tickets in Switzerland. A guy driving his Lamborghini through a village at 60mph had a ticket for several hundred thousand dollars handed to him while I was living there.

Which is bad.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#53

Post by dsfyu404ed » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #33

"Actions taken by the legislature in Louisiana and in other states have likely compounded the issue. According to Census survey data, in states with the most fine-reliant jurisdictions, localities incurred notably steeper state funding cuts than elsewhere nationally over the decade. Many of those same states have also enacted numerous revenue restrictions for cities over the years. In fact, according to research from…

It's not as though cities and towns are using fine dollars to educate children and feed the homeless. They're not. They're using it to pay more police salaries so they can write more tickets. They're simply using the money to further their own existence. God forbid the towns be forced to find an alternate way to pay for, reduce or cut a service in the face of shrinking revenues.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#54

Post by LanceH » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

Excel_Wizard wrote: post #20

deadmetheny wrote: post #15

There's lots of towns very well-known for being speed traps in my part of the Midwest. My hometown in particular has a police force of approximately 8 full-time officers for a population of 5,000. There's absolutely no good reason to have so many cops for a population of that size, especially when the crime statistics are very low for non-traffic infractions. The only traffic ticket I've gotten in 30+ years was at 12…

The U.S. has 284 police officers per 100,000 people.( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen... ) That would translate to ~14 police officers for a town of your size.

A lot of rural towns are at least as dependent on highway patrol and sheriffs.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#55

Post by SkyBelow » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

deadmetheny wrote: post #15

There's lots of towns very well-known for being speed traps in my part of the Midwest. My hometown in particular has a police force of approximately 8 full-time officers for a population of 5,000. There's absolutely no good reason to have so many cops for a population of that size, especially when the crime statistics are very low for non-traffic infractions. The only traffic ticket I've gotten in 30+ years was at 12…

>8 full-time officers for a population of 5,000. There's absolutely no good reason to have so many cops for a population of that size

Doesn't that mean 2 officers on duty at any one time? There is ~160 hours in a week, so that is 4 40 hour blocks. Having two police active at any time seems reasonable (probably with them staggered so that when one swaps the other is only half way through their shift).

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#56

Post by xfitm3 » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

bksenior wrote: post #13

wil421 wrote: post #5

In Georgia you can see the path I-75 and I-16 take through the southern half of the state. 16 is notorious for speed traps and other shadier stuff. Including road blocks on exit ramps with drug dogs waiting to sniff cars. They bait people into getting off at the exits by leaving fake signs about upcoming road blocks. When College kids were moving or getting out of school they’d be out in full force. Sadly my Dad grew…

If you've driven between LA and SF you'll most likely be very aware of Kings County. A notorious speed trap that requires you to be on site to contest their questionable infractions.

And then you hire a lawyer who "has a good relationship" with a judge

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#57

Post by mieseratte » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #5

In Georgia you can see the path I-75 and I-16 take through the southern half of the state. 16 is notorious for speed traps and other shadier stuff. Including road blocks on exit ramps with drug dogs waiting to sniff cars. They bait people into getting off at the exits by leaving fake signs about upcoming road blocks. When College kids were moving or getting out of school they’d be out in full force. Sadly my Dad grew…

Any specific examples of this? I've been taking I-16 pretty routinely for most of my life, never heard of or ran into anything resembling a speed trap let alone bait.

Admittedly, I have some friends with a story about Georgia highway patrol / local PD setting up a roadblock off an interstate exit right by a Phish concert.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#58

Post by duxup » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #51

duxup wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Kleptocracy would only apply if the folks in charge are funneling funds to themselves. If it is just what funds the government, that isn't a kleptocracy. Bad policy maybe, but not kleptocracy.

The folks in charge get paid by the government and the amount the government is able to pay is highly dependent on the amount of funding it gets.

I feel like that standard would quickly result in any government that pays anyone called a kleptocracy.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#59

Post by mikeash » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

donatj wrote: post #27

I've always thought society would be better off if fines and money confiscated by police was redistributed as tax relief rather than going to the government or police department doing the confiscation. As it stands it only encourages abuse.

Fines must be completely decoupled from the people levying them. They should be required to, say, give these funds to a blind trust which donates them to charities which don’t operate anywhere within 500 miles of the dining jurisdiction.

Re: Small towns in much of the country are dependent on punitive fines and fees

#60

Post by duxup » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #53

duxup wrote: post #33

"Actions taken by the legislature in Louisiana and in other states have likely compounded the issue. According to Census survey data, in states with the most fine-reliant jurisdictions, localities incurred notably steeper state funding cuts than elsewhere nationally over the decade. Many of those same states have also enacted numerous revenue restrictions for cities over the years. In fact, according to research from…

It's not as though cities and towns are using fine dollars to educate children and feed the homeless. They're not. They're using it to pay more police salaries so they can write more tickets. They're simply using the money to further their own existence. God forbid the towns be forced to find an alternate way to pay for, reduce or cut a service in the face of shrinking revenues.

I think the article adequately describes how difficult it is to "find an alternative" particularly when the state legislature is cutting off those paths.