> The important thing is that all evolution equations that we know of are time-reversible. I've heard this before, but it's so surprising to me, when one of the simplest mathematical operations - addition - is not reversible. e.g. if a+b=4 , you can't infer the values of a and b (beyond their linear relationship). This non-injectivity is a kind of summarising, with less information, where more than one state maps to…
It is not reversible because you’re ereasing information. If you want to have a reversible addition you are not allowed to destroy the information. The same happens if you apply the standard AND operator to two bits because the output is only one bit, therefore it is impossible to figure out the two input bits. To have a reversible AND operator you can define it like this: f(x1, x2, b) = (x1, x2, b XOR (x1 AND x2)).…
How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?
51–60 of 93 posts
Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?
#52Simple: the laws of most physics say you can look at something now and work it backwards. Once it falls into a black hole the previous state of what falls into it isn't able to be derived from working backwards because it just fell into a black hole. This isn't rocket science! (Maybe eventually though)
... because it just fell into a black hole That doesn't really explain anything.
Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
A transactional database would tick that box, events are stored and can rollback to a point in time.
Not quite. Dropping a column or updating a row is typically irreversible.
Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?
#54> The important thing is that all evolution equations that we know of are time-reversible. I've heard this before, but it's so surprising to me, when one of the simplest mathematical operations - addition - is not reversible. e.g. if a+b=4 , you can't infer the values of a and b (beyond their linear relationship). This non-injectivity is a kind of summarising, with less information, where more than one state maps to…
It is not reversible because you’re ereasing information. If you want to have a reversible addition you are not allowed to destroy the information. The same happens if you apply the standard AND operator to two bits because the output is only one bit, therefore it is impossible to figure out the two input bits. To have a reversible AND operator you can define it like this: f(x1, x2, b) = (x1, x2, b XOR (x1 AND x2)).…
Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is not reversible because you’re ereasing information. If you want to have a reversible addition you are not allowed to destroy the information. The same happens if you apply the standard AND operator to two bits because the output is only one bit, therefore it is impossible to figure out the two input bits. To have a reversible AND operator you can define it like this: f(x1, x2, b) = (x1, x2, b XOR (x1 AND x2)).…
Quantum computing is reversible in this way. Rabbit hole starts here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancilla_bit
After reading: “oh my god it’s full of stars!”
Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?
#56> The important thing is that all evolution equations that we know of are time-reversible. I've heard this before, but it's so surprising to me, when one of the simplest mathematical operations - addition - is not reversible. e.g. if a+b=4 , you can't infer the values of a and b (beyond their linear relationship). This non-injectivity is a kind of summarising, with less information, where more than one state maps to…
The difference between them is that physical evolution takes one state to another state, whereas addition takes two numbers to another number.
|a| = 2
a^2 = 4Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?
#57> The important thing is that all evolution equations that we know of are time-reversible. I've heard this before, but it's so surprising to me, when one of the simplest mathematical operations - addition - is not reversible. e.g. if a+b=4 , you can't infer the values of a and b (beyond their linear relationship). This non-injectivity is a kind of summarising, with less information, where more than one state maps to…
So for example one typical quantum gate is called for physicists CNOT, or you would call it in computing a generalization of the XOR gate. We physicists would not think “Oh XOR is irreversible because A ⊕ B = B ⊕ A even when A ≠ B, so the same output can come from two different outputs.” That is just not what reversibility means to us.
Contrast this with boolean AND, which we would say is irreversible. What’s the difference? It's that we think of all of our operations as being automorphisms, they map a system back to itself. So when we are looking at CNOT/XOR, we are thinking about a system which looks like this:
(t increasing)-->
A ---.-----
\
\
B ------⊕--
and if you have the output "1, 0" from this system you can infer that the input was "1, 1". In that automorphic sense XOR is reversible, even though given the output on wire B alone you cannot decide what A or B was.Contrast with boolean AND, where if I give you the output "0, 0" you cannot genuinely determine whether that came from "0, 1" or "0, 0". It could have come from either place.
So the automorphism (x, y) ⇒ (x, x + y) in fact is reversible in this sense; there is an automorphism which undoes it. The weirdness that you are identifying comes from the fact that you were actually considering the automorphism (x, y) ⇒ (0, x + y), which is a composition of the addition gate above with an ERASE gate, (x) ⇒ (0). Ignore the erasure and you get a reversible process again.
You might know that AND, OR, and NOT are universal: you can write any circuit from N bits to 1 bit by enumerating all of the inputs which could set the bit to 1, using AND and NOT to build “masks” for those inputs, and then using a final big OR-gate to see if any of the masks was triggered. By de Morgan's laws, you can build an OR gate out of NOT and AND; and then it is not too hard to see that you can build both NOT and AND from NAND: so we say that “NAND is a universal boolean gate.”
To get a universal reversible system you just need to go to three bits. Two working options are the Toffoli gate “doubly controlled NOT” and the Fredkin gate “controlled swap,”
Toffoli = ([x, y, z]) => [x, y, (x && y)? z : !z]
Fredkin = ([x, y, z]) => [x, x? z : y, x? y : z]
The universality of Toffoli is very easy to see from the universality of NAND: because Toffoli(x, y, 0) is actually just (x, y, x NAND y). However the fact that you start with an “isolated” bit and then it becomes “involved” in the computation, this is where you eventually start to need to erase bits if you do not have unlimited amounts of memory. [Fredkin is a little more difficult to reason about but for example Fredkin(x, 0, y) = (x, x AND y, (NOT x) AND y) and so you can then build both an AND gate directly from this construction and a NOT gate with y=1.]Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?
#58> The important thing is that all evolution equations that we know of are time-reversible. I've heard this before, but it's so surprising to me, when one of the simplest mathematical operations - addition - is not reversible. e.g. if a+b=4 , you can't infer the values of a and b (beyond their linear relationship). This non-injectivity is a kind of summarising, with less information, where more than one state maps to…
An example of an action that's not reversible is masking: `a &= b`. But if you dig deep enough into the physics, you find that these kinds of irreversible actions are actually always implemented in a way analogous to the following:
// a &= b
acquire zero'd register z from environment
z ^= a & b
z ^= a
a ^= z
z ^= a
discard z into environment
Which can be reversed if you're able to get the discarded `z` register back.Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
IANAPhysicist, but couldn't information be radiated away? When you have a particle and antiparticle annihilating, the information about what collided and when is carried away by the radiation from that annihilation event; nothing remains at ground zero to be inspected. As matter traverses the accretion disk and falls towards the event horizon, couldn't information about it be radiated away? As an observer, you could…
As it stands, as far as we know, Hawking radiation is completely thermal and random, so as the article states, you can't tell the initial state from the final state even if you collect all the radiation. > observing the accretion disk Well that is not part of the black hole now, is it.
There's energy going in, so it isn't hermetically sealed. Thus, the accretion disk is part of the system. But if there's no correlated information coming out, it's closed one-way. You say there is radiation coming out, theoreticly, and I know that radiation is information. It's information in one strict sense, but not in the other--what are the different scopes; Is the radiation not observable?
Are the laws of thermodynamics seemingly violated, that is, is the theory not complete (rhethoric question); Thus your remark was in effect non-constructive, as you cannot prove one unknown with another, can you?
Nevermind the kind of scary question whether any system in the grand scheme of things is closed at all.
BTW another comment mentioned conservation of momentum and charge. I wonder, in the focal point of an ideal lense, in theory, can the image be reconstructed? Well, by looking at the flame quite trivially, at least, albeit not in the perspective of the focal point (not easily without ambiguity, surely). Is this what Tao's one-pixel-cam is about?