Live data from Hacker News

How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?

backreaction.blogspot.com

41–50 of 93 posts

Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?

#41

Simple: the laws of most physics say you can look at something now and work it backwards. Once it falls into a black hole the previous state of what falls into it isn't able to be derived from working backwards because it just fell into a black hole. This isn't rocket science! (Maybe eventually though)

... because it just fell into a black hole

That doesn't really explain anything.

Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not reversible because you’re ereasing information. If you want to have a reversible addition you are not allowed to destroy the information. The same happens if you apply the standard AND operator to two bits because the output is only one bit, therefore it is impossible to figure out the two input bits. To have a reversible AND operator you can define it like this: f(x1, x2, b) = (x1, x2, b XOR (x1 AND x2)).…

You’d have to do that for all results, not just one. This is basically what an event sourced system does: you store all the events and fold your state, so you can “play back” to any point in time. You could theoretically reverse from the end, but I haven’t seen it done.

A transactional database would tick that box, events are stored and can rollback to a point in time.

Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which law of physics say information must be lost in a black hole? AFAIK if information is lost in a black hole it will also violate the second law of thermodynamics - so really you have many many laws saying it cannot be lost - and Hawking temporarily claimed it will be lost in black holes before recanting and saying it won't. So ... I don't quite follow. I mean this title is as concerning to me as something that cl…

I believe the 'No-hair theorem' is closest to a 'law' that says Black holes destroy information [1]. If it is true, then when you throw anything into a black hole, information about what you threw in (whether it is a chair, a star, a planet, etc.) is 'lost' as to the outside world they all yield the same observable parameters of the black hole. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-hair_theorem

IANAP but here is a physicist talking about no hair theorem and information loss paradox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I55e6chHUs0

TLDW: They probably do have hair.

Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?

#45

This is literally what the holographic principle addresses... https://youtu.be/B2ksDczJOAs Leonard Susskind has enough accessible vids and lectures to give a conceptual idea of how it works out.

Also see Black hole Firewalls - with Sean Carroll (speaking at 20:25) and Jennifer Ouellette https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8bhtEgB8Mo

which explains the paradox and several different competing theories at a high level.

Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?

#46

> The important thing is that all evolution equations that we know of are time-reversible. I've heard this before, but it's so surprising to me, when one of the simplest mathematical operations - addition - is not reversible. e.g. if a+b=4 , you can't infer the values of a and b (beyond their linear relationship). This non-injectivity is a kind of summarising, with less information, where more than one state maps to…

That quote is not exactly correct, there are plenty of evolution equations which are not time-reversible beginning with the linear heat equation. If you look at the solution given by convolution (usually taught in first PDE course) you see that this equation has infinite speed of propagation. Any parabolic/dissipative equation is not time-reversible (which is analogous to addition not being reversible... dissipation involves an averaging process).

Elsewhere the author says "all fundamental evolution equations in physics are time-reversible." By fundamental I'm assuming she means: Maxwell's equations, Einstein's field equations and the Schrodinger equation.

Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?

#47

Simple: the laws of most physics say you can look at something now and work it backwards. Once it falls into a black hole the previous state of what falls into it isn't able to be derived from working backwards because it just fell into a black hole. This isn't rocket science! (Maybe eventually though)

I’ve heard this idea a lot and it always strikes me as one of those things that’s technically true but wildly off base. I get that the equations are mathematically reversible. Presumably we’re more interested in the world than we are the math though, and in real life almost nothing can be worked backwards. There’s a lamp on the dresser for example. How did it get there? Go ahead and run the kinematics in reverse and tell me which of the infinite solutions is the truth.

Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?

#48
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’d have to do that for all results, not just one. This is basically what an event sourced system does: you store all the events and fold your state, so you can “play back” to any point in time. You could theoretically reverse from the end, but I haven’t seen it done.

A transactional database would tick that box, events are stored and can rollback to a point in time.

Not quite. Dropping a column or updating a row is typically irreversible.

Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not reversible because you’re ereasing information. If you want to have a reversible addition you are not allowed to destroy the information. The same happens if you apply the standard AND operator to two bits because the output is only one bit, therefore it is impossible to figure out the two input bits. To have a reversible AND operator you can define it like this: f(x1, x2, b) = (x1, x2, b XOR (x1 AND x2)).…

You’d have to do that for all results, not just one. This is basically what an event sourced system does: you store all the events and fold your state, so you can “play back” to any point in time. You could theoretically reverse from the end, but I haven’t seen it done.

Urbit ;-)

Re: How do black holes destroy information and why is that a problem?

#50
post #29

man, watch the PBS YouTube channel SpaceTime. They're short, informative, and very well done. they dedicate a handful of episodes to getting you ready for Hawking radiation. https://youtu.be/qPKj0YnKANw

I love their dedication to building up over multiple episodes instead of dumbing things down every time.
Post reply on HN