Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#391

Post by stcredzero » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:53 PM UTC

new2628 wrote: post #376

apple4ever wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great points. There are plenty of areas to discuss politics, and at work doesn't have to be one of them. I've studiously avoided talking to anybody at work about politics, as it usually only serves to anger people if you don't agree. I've had a successful career of doing that.

That sounds like a fine approach, but unfortunately politics creeps into more and more aspects of life, hardly any topic remains apolitical. Like that quote "you may not be interested in war, but ..."

That sounds like a fine approach, but unfortunately politics creeps into more and more aspects of life.

Do a historical survey of people who tried to suffuse politics completely through the lives of their followers. For completeness, look also at the actions of religions in the same way.

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Politics, movements of any kind which demand the entirety of the lives of their followers are often perpetrators of the worst things.

As a counterpoint, look to times and places where people are free to be open, to be themselves, and to choose how they live. There is also a power in the dispersal of power. Many call this freedom.

Like that quote "you may not be interested in war, but ..."

The way Robert Heinlein put it was something like this: "The end product of politics is like the result of peristalsis. It's not very pleasant, but it's no less vital to your health and well being." I think this is a good analogy. Imagine having a cocktail party conversation with someone singularly obsessed with their digestive tract.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#392

Post by weberc2 » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:54 PM UTC

rollinDyno wrote: post #332

dmix wrote: post #224

A small group of people always ruin these things for everyone else. ie, the people who can't handle politics and think the worlds constantly on fire so they think they're justified in ignoring social grace and time/place taboos. The internet news machines have generated many thousands of these people. I feel like they are becoming more popular and giving even less of a shit that other people don't want to be forced t…

I hear you, but have you considered that the world's actually on fire? Perhaps you wouldn't notice because you don't live in the Amazon. I don't mean that seriously, but it does serve a point. How can you tell if people are just ranting "because of the internet" and not because they are suffering and think your political inaction is contributing to their pains? Because of your comment I will try to be more cautious a…

> How can you tell if people are just ranting "because of the internet" and not because they are suffering and think your political inaction is contributing to their pains?

In many cases, it's not the group which is allegedly suffering that is doing the alledging, but rather elites who are far removed from that group, and the "alledging" takes the form of straw men, motte/bailey fallacies, and definitions that are ultimately circular. Often, we _are_ in the groups that are allegedly suffering or surrounded by those group, and there are no clear signs that we/they are suffering as described (and indeed, the descriptions are often incoherent).

So yeah, bonafide suffering is pretty easy to spot, as is opportunistic "compassion".

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#393

Post by sequoia » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:54 PM UTC

> Some employees have used internal chat boards to rally other workers against some Google projects, helping push the company to end work on a censored search engine for the Chinese market and an artificial intelligence contract for the U.S. military.

Oh. So they don't care about bullying or alienating people with unpopular political views, they're upset that employees are questioning their material support of antidemocratic governments. For a second I thought they were actually making something close to a good ethical choice here, I see I was mistaken.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#394

Post by TheGRS » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:54 PM UTC

magashna wrote: post #348

t0astbread wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "privilege" here is that banning discussions about politics can be used as a tool to silence the opposition of the current status quo. * edit: changed "competition" to "opposition"

Or it can be to create a neutral environment to get work done, as a professional environment should be. I just want to put in my hours and go home. Keep your politics to yourself.

I think the problem with this view, especially in software development, is that it will pretty soundly continue the current status quo in diversity. We won't get more diversity without some political discussion.

If you believe diversity is not a worthy topic of discussion or debate at the workplace, well, therein lies the political divide. Silencing political discussion is then its own form of getting a leg up in that debate.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#395

Post by root_axis » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:54 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #69

root_axis wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their job is to create a forum for others to debate, and to try and maintain neutrality What? Says who?

Others as in not their employees. Google indexes all the worlds information, who says their goal is to impose their opinion on it? Isn't neutrality in indexing the assumption?

> Google indexes all the worlds information

They do not collect anything even remotely close to "all the worlds information".

> who says their goal is to impose their opinion on it

Their goal is to make money. Whether they impose their opinion on the index is a business decision.

> Isn't neutrality in indexing the assumption?

Why would it be? What if the people that run google have a fundamental disagreement with certain political ideas and have a desire not to index those things?

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#396

Post by rollinDyno » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

simonsarris wrote: post #372

rollinDyno wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you, but have you considered that the world's actually on fire? Perhaps you wouldn't notice because you don't live in the Amazon. I don't mean that seriously, but it does serve a point. How can you tell if people are just ranting "because of the internet" and not because they are suffering and think your political inaction is contributing to their pains? Because of your comment I will try to be more cautious a…

You're proving his point. The Amazon is experiencing a more or less average amount of fire during its dry season as farmers clear/maintain cropland like they do every year. However, the internet media has turned this into sensationalism that captures people like you and turns them into doomsayers. From nasa.gov: > As of August 16, 2019, an analysis of NASA satellite data indicated that total fire activity across the…

I wasn't being serious about that. I was trying to say is that just as they can't tell if the Amazon is on fire because they don't live there, they can't tell if someone is being opressed by the system because they simply aren't this certain someone.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#397

Post by EpicEng » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

d1zzy wrote: post #379

EpicEng wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really the crux of the issue. I agree that people should probably leave most of their personal beliefs at home... unless it's something that directly related to what the company is doing. So Google employees are supposed to just shut up or leave?

No, what in my opinion they should do is: 1. use designated/official channels to report such issues (ex. talk to their manager or their HR representative or even bring it up at TGIF) 2. if #1 fails they have a choice: continue working or walk away. Nobody is forcing them to work for a company that doesn't listen to them for issues they deeply care about (presumably) A company is not a democracy. There should of cours…

Agreed, but it's Google's approach that's up for discussion here, not whether or not they have the right to shut down such discussion. I don't think a company who shits down reasonable debate is going to do well over the long term.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#398

Post by psychrometer » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #169

baby wrote: post #29

I'm not at Google but my guess is that the number of Chinese employees and the current protests in HongKong might create some internal political fights.

I haven't been at Google in 5 years but I worked with a lot of Chinese coworkers from all three of mainland China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong when I was there (as well as ABCs of those descents). Honestly, I never saw a Chinese employee get into a political argument. Mostly they were just happy to be in the U.S. and draw a Google-level salary. ABCs (including myself) would, but usually about American politics, not Chinese…

Public actions like the ones in the story linked below make me think different.

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/australasia/article/3020639/c...

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#399

Post by kontorlaore » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:59 PM UTC

baby wrote: post #29

I'm not at Google but my guess is that the number of Chinese employees and the current protests in HongKong might create some internal political fights.

Let's not forget this classic:

> Chinese nationals inside Google have at times clashed with its techno-libertarian culture. One infamous example, detailed in a book by the former head of Google’s “people operations,” comes from 2008, when the company cafeteria offered employees a “Free Tibet Goji-Chocolate Creme Pie.” This offended a Chinese national at the company, who sent an email to Chief Executive Larry Page. The chef was immediately suspended — then, after a companywide email thread that at the time was the longest in Google history, reinstated. An engineer who was at Google at the time told me the whole controversy was “ridiculous.”

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#400

Post by Aperocky » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 5:59 PM UTC

webwielder2 wrote: post #59

It's funny how we pigeonhole "things that actually matter" as "politics" and that those things are somehow taboo. I mean, what's MORE worth talking about than human rights, the environment, history, etc.?

Nothing and everything.

What's more important to life than family and friends? Do you talk about them at length at work?

Just because something is of monumental importance to the society/world, doesn't mean you need to talk about it all the time, especially at work.