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Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

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Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#511

Post by wutbrodo »

coldtea wrote: post #142
wutbrodo wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it's what the parent comment is doing, but it's beyond baffling to me when I see this view in the wild. You'd have to be completely ignorant of staggering amounts of history, economics, and basic arithmetic to think that historical incomes were anywhere close to what we have today in terms of consumer goods, and yet I see this very often. (Not to be mistaken with more reasonable arguments that rely on th…

Well, one also has to be completely ignorant of staggering amounts of history, culture, and social understanding, to think that historical cultural concerns where anywhere close to what we have today in terms of consumer goods and buying more stuff... You could be perfectly content (and more happy than most office drones with 1000x the stuff) with a couple of clothe articles, food and a basic home...

> Well, one also has to be completely ignorant of staggering amounts of history, culture, and social understanding, to think that historical cultural concerns where anywhere close to what we have today in terms of consumer goods and buying more stuff..

Uh, sure? This is a complete non sequitur, as nobody is making the claim you're describing. If you actually read my full comment, I address this directly by saying that it's a much more reasonable argument that utility from all goods isn't equally distributed and the important ones haven't gotten easier to get at the same rate as the unimportant ones.

That doesn't mean that it's not incredibly factually inaccurate to think that access to consumer goods hasn't become mind-bogglingly higher

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#512

Post by theflyinghorse »

ernst_klim wrote: post #280
Draiken wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue it's actually easier to cope when what you need is repetitive hard physical labor. You don't go to sleep thinking about that big problem you still haven't solved. You actually get the satisfaction of doing the physical activity. You know with certainty that you've done your job (you can actually see it) and you know when to stop because your body will tell you to. Finally, you might be exhausted physically…

> You actually get the satisfaction of doing the physical activity. Found a guy who haven't done any hard physical labor before. You are confusing a 8-hourd hardcore shift/12 hours hard work under the boiling sun in the field with a 1-2 hour workout in a gym. > Finally, you might be exhausted physically at the end of the day, but your mind is definitely not exhausted, which allows you to actually do something with it…

Not OP but I have done manual labour jobs (Construction jobs gen labour and mudding, seismic exploration labour, moving) for years hen we first moved to the West.

I absolutely miss being in a good shape by default. I miss the satisfaction of seeing the fruits of your labour like with mudding.

> Namely, to lie down and get sleep at once.

And boy did I use to not have any sleeping issues! Slept like a baby most nights and woke up ready to go only drank coffee for the flavour. But now that I'm an office plankton I can't even think in the morning without a cup of tims.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#513

Post by macspoofing »

dragonwriter wrote: post #413
macspoofing wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Early capitalist servitude did itself evolve directly from feudal servitude, but it got much worse, in economic terms, in the process. No it didn't. This Roussaunian idealization of rural subsistence living must really die. People aren't idiots, you don't move to urban factory work (as bad as it was compared to modern day) unless rural life was much worse.

> People aren't idiots, you don't move to urban factory work (as bad as it was compared to modern day) unless rural life was much worse. Rural life was worse not because rural feudal tenancy was worse than urban factory servitude, but because the technology advances which made it possible to support the latter also simultaneously produced a population boom and reduced the total (not just per capita) quantity of rural…

No.

>also simultaneously produced a population boom

You think subsistence living was great before technological progress? Why do you think there was a population boom? How do you think population size was controlled before technological advances?

Maybe through:

- high child mortality

- famine, starvation and malnutrition

- war, crime and violence

- disease and injury

... all of the above!

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#514

Post by ailideex »

mikelyons wrote: post #510
ailideex wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, the reality is that this happens all the time Murder also happens all the time and it is not okay. Something happening does not mean it is okay.

Saying it's okay, that's up to you. Do they get away with it? YES!

> It's considered completely reasonable for employers to terminate employees and not even pay them for the rest of the day.

So where does the sentiment that it is completely okay come from?

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#515

Post by goatlover »

xg15 wrote: post #123
goatlover wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people want to work OT hours for the extra money, to get stuff done, or because they like working more than 40 hours.

Why do they like working more? Are they masochists?

Because some people like their work, or because they're in an industry that takes a lot of hours to get going, like starting a restaurant.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#516

Post by Digit-Al »

psychrometer wrote: post #318
Digit-Al wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I humbly disagree. Even in medieval times there were clerics, scribes, book-keepers, and so on.

Those people probably made up less than 1% of the population.

The small number is irrelevant. The OP said office jobs did not exist in medieval times. This is quite clearly an incorrect statement. I am perfectly happy to debate whether pointing this out is relevant to the point being made, but I stand by my assertion.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#517

Post by JBSay »

swayvil wrote: post #483
JBSay wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the point. A serf didn't have to prove his worth. An employee does.

A serf who can't prove his worth get beatings and demotions. Ultimately death.

Do yourself a favour and open a history book.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#518

Post by swayvil »

JBSay wrote: post #517
swayvil wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A serf who can't prove his worth get beatings and demotions. Ultimately death.

Do yourself a favour and open a history book.

I admit it, I was talking from my vast experience with Braveheart.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#519

Post by kwhitefoot »

notimetorelax wrote: post #59
kwhitefoot wrote: post #32

Here is some more recent data (from 2014): https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours I'm glad I live and work in Norway where the average is between 1300 and 1500 hours a year.

42 hours in Switzerland is IMHO a lie. I’ve seen and experienced tech and pharma setting expectations so high that people have to work at least 50-60 hours.

Don't you have anything like the Working Time Directive? I know Switzerland is not an EU member but then neither is Norway but we adhere to it as part of the obligations that we have regarding access to the Single Market.
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