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Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

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Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#491

Post by swayvil »

BurningFrog wrote: post #485
swayvil wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well relatively short. Not necessarily nasty and brutish tho. And, as I said, modern medicine might fix that.

OK, the nasty and brutish part might not have been huge. Modern medicine is great, but it turns out to not add that many years to our life spans. Mostly money does. Or more likely, the healthy lives money buys. Put in other words, it's much better to not get sick than to have great health care! (I'm not just bullshitting here, this is what the data shows (not that I have any links with proofs to show (so feels free t…

Oh I totally believe it. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#492

Post by manfredo »

chewz wrote: post #468
manfredo wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poverty in Indonesia has been decreasing with less than 10% falling below the international poverty line (which is the minimum amount needed to get food and shelter)[1]. Using them as a poster child of impoverishment seems to draw more on stereotype rather than fact. And again, the baseline needs to be compared against pre-industrial circumstances: do you really think that the average Indonesian wants to turn back th…

You missed my point. I have lived in Indonesia and traveled there a lot. The example is from book by Elisabeth Pisani [1]. My whole point is that you can still find places where living in preindustrial capitalism is fairly easy due to abundance of Nature. There were many more places like this ages ago maybe not like this particular example but without much hardship. Mediterraneans comes to mind. Thats it. http://indo…

> My whole point is that you can still find places where living in preindustrial capitalism is fairly easy due to abundance of Nature.

Any my point is, no you can't. No preindustrial society lives "fairly easy", at least not unless you have a very different conception of "fairly easy" living. Even in the pre-industrial Mediterranean, people lived on near-starvation diets and routinely died of easily treatable illnesses. Average adult male height was bewteen 5'2" and 5'4" in the ancient Mediterranean, based on skeletal evidence. Child mortality was in the 50% range. Most women had no opportunities besides child-rearing and domestic work. No amount of natural abundance can replace antibiotics and industrialized goods like contraceptives, communication, medicine, etc.

If you have the conception that living off the abundance of Nature is at all easy, I highly suggest you dig deeper into this subject. During the 1960s to around the 1980s this idea that the state of nature is idyllic was popular. But as data on the lives of pre-industrial and pre-agricultural societies became more available all but the most ardent supporters of naturalistic idealism arrived at the conclusion that pre-industrial society is a lot worse than life in an industrialized society. Violence, and inability to provide for basic necessities is drastically lower in industrialized societies than it was in preindustrial societies.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#493

Post by simplecomplex »

wukerplank wrote: post #461
simplecomplex wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never before has education been so cheap or widely available. The whole world’s information is available to anyone with an Internet connection.

Let me be sarcastic: Yes, it is very easy to have sufficiently fast internet (or even a computer) in a non-industrialized country. Even in the US it is perfectly viable to work 2-3 low wage jobs to keep your family fed and healthy and then bring up the energy to do a hacking boot camp. Also, because the basic education is so great in under developed regions regions, it is a breeze to grasp higher concepts of math. An…

Yes, life can be hard. And it’s unfair.

It wasn’t easy or fair in preindustrial times. People worked a few hours less on average, but they received less wealth in exchange and had no opportunity to educate themselves and grow wealth. Serfs were not given a choice of job or even the ability to leave or marry without their lord’s permission. Peasants were stuck for life, unlike someone who works low paid 2-3 jobs today.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#494

Post by perl4ever »

enraged_camel wrote: post #383
greyhair wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Termination without notice or payment is definitely considered bad form, short of the company closing due to bankruptcy. I have never worked anywhere that did not provide notice or some severance. Even at a startup that cut 50% prior to going down in flames, they paid those half that were released two weeks pay and two weeks insurance coverage. (even though they were asked to leave immediately) Large corporations ten…

Are you US-based? Because severence packages are absolutely an exception, rather than the norm. Most of the US has "at-will" employment, which states that employers can terminate employees at will, for any reason, without warning. And companies take advantage of this all the time. The other thing is that you seem to be speaking as a developer. Everyone knows that our industry treats employees better than average. You…

"Most of the US has "at-will" employment, which states that employers can terminate employees at will, for any reason, without warning"

I think this is a misleading (although frequently stated) comment.

Large companies I've worked for have a bureaucratic procedure before they fire anyone, and generally allow people to save face even when they really want you gone.

Technically it's "at will", but I think it's primarily the mom & pop businesses that are going to fire on a whim.

Furthermore, you are implying that there are no constraints on companies in the US, like for instance the WARN act.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#495

Post by perl4ever »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #404
vfc1 wrote: post #114

The 40h a day week and modern-day work contracts come as a direct evolution of medieval servitude, with little modification. This explains the system of values that revolve around it, such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. The servant was not expected to leave it…

At my last company, there were several employees who spent the vast majority of their time trying to convince people their jobs are important. Whether I thought they were or not is kind of irrelevant, but it seems insane to work a job where the majority of your time spent is convincing people it makes sense for you to have a job.

At a place I previously worked, I heard a rumor that the entire job of someone who was fairly high up was to email a simple report to someone higher up every day. As someone put it, the job of a crontab entry.

Since then, I started a job that was ostensibly non-technical, and it seems like people are overly impressed by anyone who can provide a dashboard style report, and it's as though you're assumed to be putting forth significant effort every time you make a new one.

If I was able to act in a more strategic manner, I would not let on that I had automated such things, and soon my entire job would be pushing a button three or four times a day.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#496

Post by dralley »

simplecomplex wrote: post #405
wukerplank wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> feel any shame quitting for a better job Yes and how do they find a better job without education? You are very fortunate that you were able leave that behind you. But do you realize there are millions of people in this world who have no means of pulling themselves out of the dirt?

Never before has education been so cheap or widely available. The whole world’s information is available to anyone with an Internet connection.

>Never before has education been so cheap or widely available.

Not the kind that counts to most employers (college degrees). That form of education has never been more expensive.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#497

Post by vondur »

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #69
vondur wrote: post #68

I believe at the height of Imperial Rome, workers almost had one day off for every day worked. The Romans did use a lot of space labor, so that may also have something to do with it.

What's "space labor"?

Oops, slave labor. My iPhone typing skills leave something to be desired apparently...

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#498

Post by ailideex »

mikelyons wrote: post #441
ailideex wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's considered completely reasonable for employers to terminate employees and not even pay them for the rest of the day. Nope.

"Nope." is cute and shows you're cocksure about that. However, the reality is that this happens all the time and is never punished by culture as "unprofessional" for a corporation to do. Who would punish them? The customers?

> However, the reality is that this happens all the time

Murder also happens all the time and it is not okay. Something happening does not mean it is okay.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#499

Post by atq2119 »

mlyle wrote: post #415
macspoofing wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If that hypothesis is true, then they can use that hypothesis to explain the existent phenomena Why would that be the case? It is true that supply/demand largely explains what happens in the job market. It is also true that there are are socio/political/cultural forces at play. For example, supply and demand is not a good explanation for why you can't come into most work environments in your undergarments.

> For example, supply and demand is not a good explanation for why you can't come into most work environments in your undergarments. Sure, when we get to ridiculous cases. But things just short of that, supply/demand is a huge contributor to. Showing up to work in shorts and flip flops? How acceptable this is depends a lot upon how hot the job market is. Of course, no matter how hot the demand situation is-- it is ne…

Showing up to work in shorts and flip flops? How acceptable this is depends a lot upon how hot the job market is.

That's really more of a cultural question, though, where the culture obviously takes the kind of job into account. Specifically, showing up to a programmer job in shorts and flip flops is going to remain accepted in most places even when the job market gets less hot, until culture changes for some unrelated reason.

The supply-demand situation is only relevant when people are going against the culture.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#500

Post by wukerplank »

simplecomplex wrote: post #493
wukerplank wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me be sarcastic: Yes, it is very easy to have sufficiently fast internet (or even a computer) in a non-industrialized country. Even in the US it is perfectly viable to work 2-3 low wage jobs to keep your family fed and healthy and then bring up the energy to do a hacking boot camp. Also, because the basic education is so great in under developed regions regions, it is a breeze to grasp higher concepts of math. An…

Yes, life can be hard. And it’s unfair. It wasn’t easy or fair in preindustrial times. People worked a few hours less on average, but they received less wealth in exchange and had no opportunity to educate themselves and grow wealth. Serfs were not given a choice of job or even the ability to leave or marry without their lord’s permission. Peasants were stuck for life, unlike someone who works low paid 2-3 jobs today…

So, what's your point?
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