Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

groups.csail.mit.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

311–320 of 523 posts

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#311

Post by ryanmercer »

devoply wrote: post #14
mbell wrote: post #13

Meh, I think this lacks perspective. Maybe you 'worked' less in that era in the sense that you provided a smaller portion of your time to a third party for pay. But, you worked more overall. You didn't work for a few hours then order food for dinner; You probably worked a few hours, then spent the next many hours either harvesting and/or creating all the requirements for life. Maybe you spent 2 hours hunting a deer,…

French farmers did nothing 1/3 of the year now many are hyperstressed and a number are taking their own lives.

>now many are hyperstressed and a number are taking their own lives.

Not just France, suicide rates are up among farmers the world around

A couple of examples:

The U.S. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/06/why-are-amer...

India https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/31/suicides...

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#312

Post by Fricken »

danieltillett wrote: post #272
lostjohnny wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a different job. it's equally hard, one could argue it's not equally heavy, but many athletes today exercise way more than what the typical medieval "drunk till the early morning ready to beat his wife and kids" farmer did.

While many athletes do work hard, it is one thing to work hard when you are well fed and another when you are starving. I have done both hard physical and keyboard tapping jobs in my life and I have no wish to go back to doing hard labor.

I enjoy hard labour, just not for 40 hours or more a week, every week. People doing traditional agriculture have to bust their ass during planting and harvest, but the rest of the time they aren't working that hard.

Same with sitting at a computer, doing it all the time drives me insane. I've got various hobbies and interests I'm passionate about, just not so passionate that I want to do them full time for the rest of my life.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#313

Post by HNcantBtrustd »

ernst_klim wrote: post #280
Draiken wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue it's actually easier to cope when what you need is repetitive hard physical labor. You don't go to sleep thinking about that big problem you still haven't solved. You actually get the satisfaction of doing the physical activity. You know with certainty that you've done your job (you can actually see it) and you know when to stop because your body will tell you to. Finally, you might be exhausted physically…

> You actually get the satisfaction of doing the physical activity. Found a guy who haven't done any hard physical labor before. You are confusing a 8-hourd hardcore shift/12 hours hard work under the boiling sun in the field with a 1-2 hour workout in a gym. > Finally, you might be exhausted physically at the end of the day, but your mind is definitely not exhausted, which allows you to actually do something with it…

I did this for 3 years. Things you didn't mention-

Breaks exist, and are encouraged. I have to take breaks in my office setting and bosses act like it's not okay.

You get good at the Physical activity. The first month sucks, after that it's fine.

The Physical activity isn't as hard as it appears. There are often tools to aid. I found my 2 Physical jobs was more mental than Physical.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#314

Post by wukerplank »

rubber_duck wrote: post #274
wukerplank wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have a look a low wage/low skill jobs. There is no such thing as security, employees are subject to their employer's benevolence. They even have to accept circumstances that might violate laws. They can't fight it because they need the job, even if they hate it. I'm too busy to do the research for you, but Amazon warehouse workers are the first examples that come to my mind.

I've worked those jobs when I was younger - none of those people would feel any shame quitting for a better job so I'm not sure what your argument is.

> feel any shame quitting for a better job

Yes and how do they find a better job without education? You are very fortunate that you were able leave that behind you. But do you realize there are millions of people in this world who have no means of pulling themselves out of the dirt?

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#315

Post by coldtea »

synthmeat wrote: post #231
coldtea wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, one also has to be completely ignorant of staggering amounts of history, culture, and social understanding, to think that historical cultural concerns where anywhere close to what we have today in terms of consumer goods and buying more stuff... You could be perfectly content (and more happy than most office drones with 1000x the stuff) with a couple of clothe articles, food and a basic home...

And even if you replace "office drone stuff" with more highbrow items... You really don't need a lot of books either. I'd die an accomplished man if I grokked what's on ~2m of my modest bookshelf. Hell, if that was all what was available at me, I'd probably get there sooner.

Yeah, the universal things more people crave after the basics (food, shelter, health) are covered are, I'd say:

- a sense of meaning - a sense of purpose - the ability to influence their environment - community - companionship - love - sex

And those are not to be found in consumer goods, and would be a problem in 1200 as much as in 2019 (if not more so)...

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#316

Post by lucasverra »

rubber_duck wrote: post #188
vfc1 wrote: post #114

The 40h a day week and modern-day work contracts come as a direct evolution of medieval servitude, with little modification. This explains the system of values that revolve around it, such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. The servant was not expected to leave it…

> such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. Your entire post is overgeneralization and dramatizing to prove some poorly thought out hypothesis but this here is the most obvious example. When there is enough choice people change jobs all the time - the demand in my l…

> Your entire post is overgeneralization and des-dramatizing to prove some poorly thought out hypothesis.

This apply here also. Thank you for laying it out for me

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#317

Post by mywittyname »

JackFr wrote: post #240
vfc1 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I did too, leave the laptop at work, arrive relatively late, as I knew I had to leave late anyway. It makes it more bearable, but it still kind of sucks, and everyone in your team is doing it (taking laptop home, answering calls), eventually, it's going to cost you. You get to work in the morning, and there is this long email thread about how something was "urgent" or went wrong and they tried to reach y…

I think that BS only persists because not just because people allow it to, but some people positively get off on it. They love the opportunity to be the hero "I was up from 4 til 7 rebuilding the database -- you're welcome" and the ability to differentiate themselves without actually being competent at their jobs. Some roles (junior investment banking analysts, junior lawyers, etc) the long hours and weekends are par…

> "I was up from 4 til 7 rebuilding the database -- you're welcome" and the ability to differentiate themselves without actually being competent at their jobs.

Some do this because it's in their nature. They don't spend their free time doing enjoyable, fulfilling tasks for whatever reason, so work is really the only form of stimulation they have. Older women without children (or adult children) seem to be particularly susceptible to this.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#318

Post by psychrometer »

Digit-Al wrote: post #217
ken wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article isn't about office workers. It's about workers. Laborers are doing 8+ hour days, too, and they would not be equally productive in half the time. There's a reason it tends to pay by the hour. Let's compare apples to apples. Office jobs didn't exist in the medieval period, but labor jobs still exist today.

I humbly disagree. Even in medieval times there were clerics, scribes, book-keepers, and so on.

Those people probably made up less than 1% of the population.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#319

Post by diveloper »

silveroriole wrote: post #223
jokoon wrote: post #150

I'm not waiting for society to change to live a better, more normal life, I've already abandoned the classic work sphere and its crazy carousel, and it has a long time since I have accepted it. All those findings done in that research confirms a lot of how I'm feeling already. It's true that I don't "see" as many people as people who work, so I socialize less and I don't meet many people, but: * I learned that having…

May I ask what you do? As in, to sustain your life/living situation/etc.

I'm curious as well.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#320

Post by Draiken »

nudpiedo wrote: post #282
Draiken wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue it's actually easier to cope when what you need is repetitive hard physical labor. You don't go to sleep thinking about that big problem you still haven't solved. You actually get the satisfaction of doing the physical activity. You know with certainty that you've done your job (you can actually see it) and you know when to stop because your body will tell you to. Finally, you might be exhausted physically…

> Having said all that, I've never had the opportunity to work with physical labor so my views are likely biased. Very strong opinion to end up saying everything could be just false because it is a mere gut feeling. Everyone has worries and problems, if it is not the weather which is about to damage the harvest it will be the expensive providers or the fruits imported from cheaper countries or the workers who try to…

> Everyone has worries and problems, if it is not the weather which is about to damage the harvest it will be the expensive providers or the fruits imported from cheaper countries or the workers who try to do as less as possible with the maintenance of their tools. And after work everyone stressed because they are afraid that this year benefits might end up not covering expenses and not knowing what to do if the price of milk drops again and your 11 year daughter does not understand why all family can't go to Disneyland during the tourist season like her friends do.

Sure we all worry, but that wasn't what I meant to say. I mean on the actual work day, almost everything is predictable or it has known responses. Today you have to plow the field, remove weeds, prepare seeds, milk the cows, etc. While on a mental job you get thrown literally anything at you and you're supposed to solve the problem.

Those worries you mention exist on both worlds equally. What if my startup fails? What if I get old and can't get a job anymore? What if the tech I'm working gets obsolete? What if I get replaced by a cheaper alternative so the bottom line grows?

> Very strong opinion to end up saying everything could be just false because it is a mere gut feeling.

Maybe I should've mentioned it but I got this from talking to friends and others that have physical jobs. It's not a study, but definitely not just a gut feeling.

Post reply on HN