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Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

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Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#101

Post by claudeganon »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #86
Someone1234 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do like half of the world's tech billionaires live in Silicon Valley? Because wealth is concentrated at the top... That's the whole problem. Society gets poorer while the ultra-wealthy continue to accumulate wealth. > It allows the less privileged to build a good life, but it also hinders the most ambitious ones. Good..? So your complaint is that Nordic countries try to make give everyone a good standard of liv…

You are in no way answering to the question: why in Silicon Valley and not in Finland or other countries?

Because the military-industrial complex of the world’s largest super power invested in the basic research and infrastructure to create this context. It’s the same reason the Soviet’s excelled in technological pursuits relative to many small European countries and why Russia still has an outsized place in IT.

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#102

Post by sandworm101 »

Someone1234 wrote: post #34
verttii wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, exactly because of the high work ethic USA excels in many regards that these "well-being nations" do not. But you're right, it doesn't necessarily lead to a better health to work harder, however, often it does lead to better business results.

I dispute the "better business results" claim, I don't think that's factually true. But let's assume it is, why then is wealth so much more concentrated[0] in the US? Let's assume that the US did have "better business results" and let's also assume that that is the result of worse working conditions. Why then are the workers, working in worse conditions, not benefiting from it directly? Seems like, if that were true,…

>> the US is working average workers harder so that the ultra-wealthy can get even wealthier. Does that benefit society at large?

Some people are calling that the "Iron Man" principal. If we can funnel enough money into the hands of billionaires, they will invent the things to solve all the world's problems. The real world is not a comic book.

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#103

Post by rayiner »

Someone1234 wrote: post #93
rayiner wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Workers are benefiting from it, at least financially. The median income in the U.S. is more than 20% higher than in Finland, adjusted for cost of living: https://economistsview.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451b33869e20133... . (Note also that the American work-week is only about 7% longer than the Finish work-week.) That difference increases as you go into the upper middle class. But for the bottom 10%, which in the U.S. la…

That figure leaves off the cost of healthcare (both premiums and services) for the US but includes it for Finland. So you aren't comparing like with like. Finland pays $4,033, and the US $9,892 per capita (2016) for healthcare according to OECD figures. Since 2016 healthcare costs in the US have continued to increase faster than the rate of inflation.

The figure includes employer-paid and government-paid insurance for both countries. 80% of health expenditures in Finland are paid by the government or employers, and almost 90% in the U.S. https://www.oecd.org/health/health-systems/OECD-Focus-on-Out....

The income figures don't include out-of-pocket healthcare costs, but those are relatively small in both countries: about $1,100 per person per year in the U.S. and it looks like $800-900 per person in Finland. (Which by the way lines up nicely with your figures above, applying the fact that 20% of expenditures in Finland are out of pocket, versus about 11% in the U.S.)

Note that the data linked above is from the "mid-2000s" while we are using healthcare expenditures from 2019. A fairer comparison with more updated data is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c.... Here, the U.S. median household income is almost 30% higher in 2016, or $7,740 per year. The difference in out-of-pocket healthcare expenses for a three-person household reduces that to about $7,000 per year.

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#104

Post by alkonaut »

xornox wrote: post #79
alkonaut wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he told me I had to work 16 hours a day to be successful. "Success" in what sense? When have you succeeded? How much should a 16h/day workweek pay for it to be a "success" if you have kids? Would the kids agree on the assessment?

And why you should be successful? This is just life - existing and being is success.

My point was something along the lines of this: “I pick my kids up at school at 4 and make them dinner every day at 5. I consider that successful”

I realize I’m lucky to be able to make that choice (and my kids will get a higher education regardless) - but it makes me sad that anyone everywhere would need to choose between success as being a present parent and success as giving your kids economic stability.

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#105

Post by miskin »

dominicr wrote: post #85
acd wrote: post #63

I can highly recommend the world to adopt like in the Nordics at least 4-5 weeks of yearly vacation. Staff are more rested with more vacation so they are more productive plus you get a different perspective having time off. Also companies should allow remote work and flexible hours. Further due to increased automation we could actually work less hours keeping the same output. If we automate more work we could allow u…

One effect of this in the Nordic culture is that often a lot of these holidays are taken at the same time. People take 3 or 4 weeks off at once between the end of June and early August, especially in Norway. Productivity for the company effectively hits zero for 6 weeks whilst the Norwegians have their holiday, then the Swedish and Danish have their turn. Although the few people that do work get a lot done due to hav…

I worked in Finland in 2001-2002 in what we would call now startup and even lead managers or scientists in company were not in the office in July-August. They simply worked more during winter and spent as much of Finnish summer outside as possible. But as article mentions, it was usual to take long vacations even in government jobs - if you needed visa for your relative, you'd better have it before June, or you would get it in September, since clerks were out of office :).

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#106

Post by goatinaboat »

askosh wrote: post #35
verttii wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well just dropping a link to a news article or a study wouldn't really change things. If you look at who's the one producing major digital innovations it's still USA. Sure the Nordic countries are smaller but it's hard to compete against countries like USA with well educated people with strong work ethic when you're pushing in half the hours. Sweden sure is doing well with digital innovations but can't say that the r…

I'm an Estonian, also a nordic country. We have a bunch of things we are years ahead of in terms of digital innovations ( https://e-estonia.com/ ), all while having a 1.3m population. What does the USA do better exactly?

What does the USA do better exactly?

Well, it seems crass to point this out, but NATO has a big presence in the Baltic states right now because you guys won’t invest in your own defence. So yeah, that is what they do.

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#107

Post by henrikschroder »

dominicr wrote: post #85
acd wrote: post #63

I can highly recommend the world to adopt like in the Nordics at least 4-5 weeks of yearly vacation. Staff are more rested with more vacation so they are more productive plus you get a different perspective having time off. Also companies should allow remote work and flexible hours. Further due to increased automation we could actually work less hours keeping the same output. If we automate more work we could allow u…

One effect of this in the Nordic culture is that often a lot of these holidays are taken at the same time. People take 3 or 4 weeks off at once between the end of June and early August, especially in Norway. Productivity for the company effectively hits zero for 6 weeks whilst the Norwegians have their holiday, then the Swedish and Danish have their turn. Although the few people that do work get a lot done due to hav…

There's an important second-order benefit to this though:

Companies are forced to ensure that their business works without key personnel for weeks at a time. It forces the company to really think about what situations are emergencies where you have to disturb key personnel on their vacation, and which ones you can actually handle anyway.

In contrast in the US, a common office-politics anti-pattern is that individuals make themselves indispensable to the business, as a form of employment protection. This is ultimately bad for the company, because people quit, people change jobs, and then the business is threatened every time such an individual quits.

When every employee is gone for weeks at a time every year, it gives the company opportunity to identify weak spots like this and work around them. And this pays off whenever key personnel leaves their job, for whatever reason.

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#108

Post by seppin »

algui91 wrote: post #5
thecopy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Sweden works 40 hours per week.

They were transitioning to a six-hours workday, as far as I know. - https://www.sciencealert.com/sweden-is-shifting-to-a-6-hour-... - https://www.thelocal.se/20140408/swedish-workers-to-test-six... Experiments shown an increment in productivity and happiness.

No this was a PR stunt that apparently really worked well.

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#109

Post by freehunter »

iikoolpp wrote: post #88
dlphn___xyz wrote: post #44

im pretty sure scandanavia leads the world in quality of life

Finland isn't Scandanavia.

In common English usage it often is:

>In English usage, Scandinavia also sometimes refers to the Scandinavian Peninsula, or to the broader region including Finland and Iceland, which is always known locally as the Nordic countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#110

Post by coldtea »

verttii wrote: post #26
mxuribe wrote: post #25

> Since then, discussions about the benefits of flexible working have intensified around the world, with a boom in large global companies embracing the concept... I sure hope companies operating in U.S. adopt this behavior more and more. It always seems like in the U.S. we work harder and not necessarily smarter; certainly not healthier. I'm envious of the health-related foundations that other countries at least try…

On the other hand, exactly because of the high work ethic USA excels in many regards that these "well-being nations" do not. But you're right, it doesn't necessarily lead to a better health to work harder, however, often it does lead to better business results.

>On the other hand, exactly because of the high work ethic USA excels in many regards that these "well-being nations" do not.

Like what? From birth mortality to all kinds of quality of life indicators its well below most of these countries...

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