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Walmart sues Tesla over fires at stores fitted with its solar panels

reuters.com

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Re: Walmart sues Tesla over fires at stores fitted with its solar panels

#131

Post by zimpenfish »

o_p wrote: post #56
c0nfused wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EVs burn frequently on the internet. Compared to the fema estimate of 171,500 highway car fires per year. https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v19i2.pdf Tesla has contributed 14 total since 2013. I know of at least 2 other cases by others have been reported https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/apr/22/tesla-inv...

Its 171k fires in 2 years not per year. You need the total Teslas vs ICE cars in the road to compare those figures. Even then not sure if its a good comparision because Tesla is on the luxury side, it should be compared with ICE cars in the same price range, not any chinese car with little safety. Common sense tells me that a big,unstable ion lithium battery at high speeds is not a good idea, gasoline is much less re…

> Its 171k fires in 2 years not per year.

No, I think it's per-year - "Each year, from 2014 to 2016, an estimated 171,500 highway vehicle fires occurred in the United States"

Re: Walmart sues Tesla over fires at stores fitted with its solar panels

#132

Post by kube-system »

hedora wrote: post #85
briandear wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Examples of where it’s not, in comparison to other similar companies?

Walmart’s “controversy and criticism” section on Wikipedia links to its own page (which I’ve never seen before): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Walmart > Criticisms include charges of racial and gender discrimination,[1][2][3] foreign product sourcing, treatment of product suppliers, environmental practices,[4] the use of public subsidies, and the company's spying on its employees.[5]

Many SV companies, and certainly tons of corporate America are subject to the same (or worse) criticisms.

Re: Walmart sues Tesla over fires at stores fitted with its solar panels

#133

Post by zimpenfish »

dwaltrip wrote: post #92
o_p wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its 171k fires in 2 years not per year. You need the total Teslas vs ICE cars in the road to compare those figures. Even then not sure if its a good comparision because Tesla is on the luxury side, it should be compared with ICE cars in the same price range, not any chinese car with little safety. Common sense tells me that a big,unstable ion lithium battery at high speeds is not a good idea, gasoline is much less re…

There are 4 orders of magnitude between 14 and 171,000. I could be wrong, but I don't think those adjustments will cross that divide.

From https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/VehicleSafetyReport

"From 2012 – 2018, there has been approximately one Tesla vehicle fire for every 170 million miles traveled. By comparison, data from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and U.S. Department of Transportation shows that in the United States there is a vehicle fire for every 19 million miles traveled."

(No indication whether the NFPA/DOT numbers include the Tesla fires, though, or how many of those are arson - in the UK, arson accounts for about 65% of vehicle fires which you can't really blame on the ICE. If the US is the same, that'd increase the 19M miles to ~54M miles per fire - still looks good for Tesla tho', especially when you consider that the ICE has 100 years of safety development compared to, what, 10 for the Teslas?)

Re: Walmart sues Tesla over fires at stores fitted with its solar panels

#134

Post by new_realist »

breser wrote: post #110
jmb12686 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, let's exclude solar panels. WMT's business model doesn't include extreme capacity Li-ion chemical bombs traveling at highway speeds. To be fair, I admire and hope one day to afford a Tesla. But the risks are clear. High capacity Li-ion batteries have high risks and incident rates of explosion.

You do realize that all vehicles have risks of fire or explosion. In order to make a vehicle with sufficient energy density to be usable for transportation you have to take those risks. While it's true that Tesla has had a relatively small number of vehicle fires with the Model S and X. To date there has not been a single fire with a Model 3. Even with the Model S and X fires they were far rarer than ICE vehicle fire…

Model 3 fire and subsequent explosions: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-fire-explosion-mosco...

Based on anecdotal evidence, Teslas seem more prone both to spontaneous combustion and fires from minor accidents than comparable luxury cars of similar age (that is, relatively new). The latter is why the NHSTA made them retrofit a titanium shield to the underbody early in the Model S lifecycle.

Re: Walmart sues Tesla over fires at stores fitted with its solar panels

#135

Post by dang »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #48
gcbw3 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friends at SolarCity never had to work 70h in a week before Tesla acquired them (nor work weekends installing solar panels on Musk mansion in L.A.) So it might very well be the result of the same company and processes.

Honestly with all the Tesla shorts trolling HN, an unsubstantiated comment like this from a fresh account is very suspicious. Can you post from an account with more comment history?

This comment breaks the site guidelines. Would you mind reviewing them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Walmart sues Tesla over fires at stores fitted with its solar panels

#136

Post by dwaltrip »

zimpenfish wrote: post #133
dwaltrip wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 4 orders of magnitude between 14 and 171,000. I could be wrong, but I don't think those adjustments will cross that divide.

From https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/VehicleSafetyReport "From 2012 – 2018, there has been approximately one Tesla vehicle fire for every 170 million miles traveled. By comparison, data from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and U.S. Department of Transportation shows that in the United States there is a vehicle fire for every 19 million miles traveled." (No indication whether the NFPA/DOT numbers include t…

Thanks for digging that up and sharing. Looks like Tesla's are safer than your average ICE when it comes to vehicle fires, but not by multiple orders of magnitude. Although, as you say, that gap may widen as they have more years to invest in safety.

Re: Walmart sues Tesla over fires at stores fitted with its solar panels

#137

Post by londons_explore »

rblatz wrote: post #114
ocschwar wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't Solar City rely on local installation firms?

Sounds like they aren’t vetting them enough, training them enough, or the panels are just hard to install properly.

I love the fact they blame an animal nest...

That animal must have been sitting on its eggs, and carelessly smoking a cigar I guess!

No... The cause will have been overheating of the 'optimizer' (MPPT tracker which outputs a fixed voltage) when it failed to a high impedance state, probably due to water incursion. The fire will have happened on a sunny day, because it's the energy from the other panels which starts the fire.

Tesla really should have made more parts of the system non-flammable. Then the story would simply be that this guy's system stopped working (or even 1 panel out of 16 stopped working, so output was slightly reduced)

Re: Walmart sues Tesla over fires at stores fitted with its solar panels

#138

Post by londons_explore »

heimatau wrote: post #122
nominated1 wrote: post #39

A friend of mine is a union electrician with 15 years in the trade. He’s helped install dozens of solar farms across Northern California. One thing I found interesting/unnerving was that apparently the spacing tolerances between panels is quite low. He said it’s their biggest concern when it comes to fires. So, maintenance seems like a must. Especially on rooftops or structures that will naturally “settle” over time.…

sarcher's example of JLC. It does look like a faulty optimizer, which is a DC electronic for each panel. As for Walmart, it's a lot to unpack. > dozens showing hazardous problems such as loose wiring and “hot spots” on panels, according to court papers filed in New York State Supreme Court. Loose wiring? A lot of setups are mostly plug and go. If they had to splice one wire, it's only a minute process to do and if th…

The optimizer consists of MOSFETs, an inductor, and a microcontroller. The circuit is pretty similar to a BLDC motor controller.

The circuit relies 100% on the microcontroller outputting the right signals, otherwise a mosfet gets stuck on (causing overcurrent, and burning out). Little boxes like that are hard to waterproof and make resistant to repeated temperature fluctuations. My guess is some water went in and shorted some control signals, or repeated temperature changes caused a solder joint to crack. That caused the MOSFETs not to get the right control input, so they got really hot and caught fire.

It's just as likely to happen on a de-energised panel too - the optimizer is still connected, and the sun is still shining.

Re: Walmart sues Tesla over fires at stores fitted with its solar panels

#139

Post by JohnJamesRambo »

markrote wrote: post #8

The Walton Family also happens to own much of First Solar, a competing provider of photovoltaic cells.

Are you implying they set fire to their own stores? Or that you want them to ignore the fires caused by Tesla’s panels?

Re: Walmart sues Tesla over fires at stores fitted with its solar panels

#140

Post by londons_explore »

heimatau wrote: post #124
avs733 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theorizing... Reduced gaps can limit/change air circulation. No matter the efficiency, solar panels absorb/create a nontrivial amount of heat that could be trapped underneath. That heat alone could be a problem or it could accelerate wear of other systems/parts. You could also have breakage, rubbing, pulling, or other mechanical issues that can result in shorts and by extension fires. What is in the article suggests…

Very interesting theory when it comes to the change in air circulation. But I can't imagine a situation where that would occur unless Walmart's claims are valid on 'poor installation'. The brackets, that hold up the rails, that go into the roof should lock in and shouldn't be any cause for concern. The underbelly of the panels do run warm but they aren't hot, except in extreme heat. Nor is there any thought to the ai…

Not enough air circulation is unlikely to get anything much over 100C, not hot enough to start a fire...

In OP's case, something electrical was almost certainly involved...

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