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Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

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Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#151
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, and in Comcast's case, when Netflix finally paid Comcast's ransom, the problem was suddenly fixed a few minutes later, because Comcast literally just had to reconfigure the router and plug in a second cable.

In those days it was typical for the costs of peering to be borne by the sender, relative to the traffic ratio. This changed when Netflix and Youtube decided to use their PR and lobbying strength to bring the negotiation to the court of public opinion - and normal people started referring to typical peering cost-sharing agreements using emotionally loaded words like "ransom"

...the costs of peering to be borne by the sender, relative to the traffic ratio.

This "rule" is too simple to game, to have ever been a functioning rule. Netflix could have just patched their app to constantly upload lots of random data. This would have killed ISPs who often expect mostly-down traffic profiles, but it would have evened out "the ratio" so it theoretically would have won the peering argument. Of course, Netflix never did this, which proves that this so-called rule never really governed anything.

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#152
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I pay for a carrier, I want to know what I should be able to count on, and what I can't count on. I can't up vote this enough. I think false advertising really needs to be clamped down on across the board, but when it's something I understand the nuances of it really gets to me. Why do companies find it so difficult to just say what it is they are selling in clear concise language, without being purposely mislea…

What false advertising? The ad clearly reads "up to 50mbps" and the 1.1mbps the copper in your neighbourhood allows is indeed positively in the 0-50 range! Damn I hate consumer ISPs, with a few small exceptions.

We cover false and misleading advertising with the same laws here in Australia.

ISPs are required to give estimated primetime speeds you can expect for a given plan.

E.g. for my 100mbs plan, they tell me that in my area, I can expect 82mbs during evening peak.

We also have some ISPs who are being transparent about over provisioning and even go as far as stopping selling into an area until they acquire more bandwidth into a node.

More on topic, this is being caused by companies milking their old networks unwilling to upgrade.

I suspect it is due to execs believing their underlings when they're told their network upgrades were supposed to alleviate capacity problems at a great cost.

Fact is, usage is evolving, go to somewhere like south Korea and YouTube streaming 4k on your phone during your commute is the norm. People have the bandwidth there, and they use it.

Here, people don't have the bandwidth, so they don't, but they would.

ISPs don't seem to realise this and think it's a select few ruining the service for the whole with their pesky streaming. When really it's just changing customer needs and reluctance to serve.

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#153
Here's a thought - just mandate that all carriers should have an API that returns true congestion rate and throttling rate of users at a given time. This way we can keep everyone honest and transparent. That way - If i'm unable to watch my Netflix show in HD without bufferring across LTE, Netflix app can call an API to see if the throttle is limiting them.

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#154
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I pay for a carrier, I want to know what I should be able to count on, and what I can't count on. I can't up vote this enough. I think false advertising really needs to be clamped down on across the board, but when it's something I understand the nuances of it really gets to me. Why do companies find it so difficult to just say what it is they are selling in clear concise language, without being purposely mislea…

What false advertising? The ad clearly reads "up to 50mbps" and the 1.1mbps the copper in your neighbourhood allows is indeed positively in the 0-50 range! Damn I hate consumer ISPs, with a few small exceptions.

To be fair I have Comcast and pay for "up to 1Gbit" but on the weekend late at night when everyone is asleep I get 1.5Gbit.

Of course during the day when people actually use the network it's down to 0.5Gbit, down to 0.3Gbit during prime Netflix hours.

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#155

if I were legislating this I'd mandate transparency before I mandated neutrality -- maybe consumers would be willing to pay up or switch to a provider that provided neutrality for streaming. one way for government to provide usable markets is to mandate good information without setting standards. NFLX is over neutrality for home internet (not sure about mobile), they're in every server cage maybe neutrality is the wr…

[deleted]

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#156
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a world (like ours) with limited bandwidth That is actually the first mistake in your argument in this context. The bandwidth limits in mobile networks are first and foremost an effect of decisions by the network operators, not an inherent property of the world. > you sometimes want to limit flows in a way to produce the least harm. Throttling different streams has different effects on user happiness. Well, mayb…

It's an inherent property of the world that bandwidth is expensive, so it's always going to be limited. There are two types of protocols: those that adjust the quantity of data sent depending on conditions, and those that don't. Streaming video does -- if throughput drops, it changes video encoding to send fewer bytes. Most other protocols don't -- they just get slow but they still need to send all the bytes eventual…

> It's an inherent property of the world that bandwidth is expensive, so it's always going to be limited.

Which is about as vague as it can get.

To make things more concrete: What would a gigabyte of mobile traffic cost if network operators were to optimize for low per-GB cost?

> There are two types of protocols: those that adjust the quantity of data sent depending on conditions, and those that don't. Streaming video does -- if throughput drops, it changes video encoding to send fewer bytes. Most other protocols don't -- they just get slow but they still need to send all the bytes eventually. There's a solid argument for throttling the first kind when congestion hits.

Except: There really is not, especially not between customers, which is what this discussion is about.

It is not some random accident that video streaming happens to be the thing that adapts to available bandwidth: That is precisely because it eats so much bandwidth compared to everything else. Which also means that throttling it in favor of other applications between different customers is actually not really useful. If you have one customer that watches a video stream and one (comparable, end-user) customer sending emails, then the email user will pretty much always have lower bandwidth requirements than their fair share anyway.

Also, it simply is not up to you to decide what a customer should value. If you sell a customer a contract that promises a certain bandwidth that is sufficient for high quality video streaming, then it is your job to provide that bandwidth at any time, except for rare occasions when/where unexpected demand hits you. It is not up to you to decide that a low-quality stream ought to be good enough, or that someone else's emails are more important than their high-quality video stream, if they are paying you for the same level of service. If the customer thought that that would be good enough, they would have bought a lower-bandwidth plan. If you don't offer a lower-bandwidth plan, then that is your fault.

Congestion should never be a standard condition in your network, if it is, what you are doing is essentially fraud by selling people a service that you don't intend to perform. The fact that it might be technically impossible to perform the service doesn't change that, it's still your fault if you know that you can't perform the service, but you enter into contracts anyway. Congestion should be an exceptional condition, and as such should never be so massive as to have any advantage from using application-dependent throttling between customers.

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DSL (VDSL2) can and does go over 100 Mbps.

Not available anywhere I've lived (Bay area, Chicago, SF). In fact I've only heard about it from Wikipedia. Never heard of anyone who knows anyone who claims to have even seen this in person.

If someone’s selling a non-symmetric ‘fibre’ service <= 100Mbit/sec, it’s probably VDSL2.

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#158
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In part, because most video sites will adapt the stream to the achievable bandwidth. In part, because if the throttle all bulk data transfers over some minimum size, all the time, most people are only going to notice on video streaming, since videos are the most frequent bulk transfers.

> In part, because most video sites will adapt the stream to the achievable bandwidth. Why is that a reason to force them to use less than their fair share of available bandwidth? > In part, because if the throttle all bulk data transfers over some minimum size, all the time, most people are only going to notice on video streaming, since videos are the most frequent bulk transfers. How is that a reason for anything,…

>> In part, because if the throttle all bulk data transfers over some minimum size, all the time, most people are only going to notice on video streaming, since videos are the most frequent bulk transfers.

>How is that a reason for anything, and what is it actually supposed to be a reason for?

I was unclear. I'm suggesting that carriers are in fact, throttling all bulk data, but reporting is focused on video. Allow a sizable burst of data at the beginning of a connection and then start rate limiting, and most people won't notice except for on videos.

This was probably the simplest, least noticable, least costly intervention to reduce peak congestion and provide a consistent experience across the carrier network.

Is it fair? Maybe, if applied to all traffic

Is it clear and transparent? No, clearly not.

Does it allow for the network to be used to capacity? No, not unless the limits were modulated based on current use, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Is it good for customers? Unclear -- to the extent you can watch good enough videos using less of your data quota, that might be a good thing; to the extent that you spend more time downloading updates, that's probably not good, but would need analysis of battery impact traded off with better push latency if the radio is kept on for other reasons. Also, to the extent that this throttling provides better availability in congested area, that's a plus for users.

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#159
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a matter of economics. An ISP could build the required infrastructure to support everyone's peak desired simultaneous usage... but then they'd probably have to quadruple (or worse) what people are paying for it just to break even, which the market wouldn't support, so they'd go out of business. The same way restaurants could invest in enough space to handle all demand for Friday nights and Valentine's Day... but…

Didn't we already give the ISPs money to upgrade their infrastructure? Something like $400 billion.

No we didn’t: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7709556.

Even if that number wasn’t fictional, even by its own narrative it applies to money supposedly paid to telephone companies for fiber deployment. The gist of the argument is that by promising to build fiber, telephone companies got regulators to let them increase phone charges and depreciate phone infrastructure faster than otherwise would have been the case. That’s where the $400 billion comes from.

These arguments are all based on the peculiarly of his telephone service was regulated before 1996 (and in the authors view the way it should have continued to be regulated—even though all of Western Europe went away from this sort of rate regulation around the same time the US did). That has nothing to do with cellular, which was always regulated under a totally different regime, and was built more than a decade after these events.

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#160
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In part, because most video sites will adapt the stream to the achievable bandwidth. Why is that a reason to force them to use less than their fair share of available bandwidth? > In part, because if the throttle all bulk data transfers over some minimum size, all the time, most people are only going to notice on video streaming, since videos are the most frequent bulk transfers. How is that a reason for anything,…

>> In part, because if the throttle all bulk data transfers over some minimum size, all the time, most people are only going to notice on video streaming, since videos are the most frequent bulk transfers. >How is that a reason for anything, and what is it actually supposed to be a reason for? I was unclear. I'm suggesting that carriers are in fact, throttling all bulk data, but reporting is focused on video. Allow a…

> I was unclear. I'm suggesting that carriers are in fact, throttling all bulk data, but reporting is focused on video.

Seems unlikely to me, but who knows ...

> Also, to the extent that this throttling provides better availability in congested area, that's a plus for users.

If you are being throttled, that's obviously not increasing availability in any meaningful sense, so, no, it's not. What would be a plus for users would be adding capacity. Not performing the contractually agreed service is the exact opposite of "increasing availability".

Overall, the problem with all of this is that it borders on fraud. There would be no problem with selling low-bandwidth plans, if that is the only thing you can offer at economical prices. Or offering the user the choice to throttle certain services so as to conserve bandwidth. The problem is that carriers kinda-sorta sell a service and then don't do what they kinda-sorta promised. And a big part of the problem is that everyone frames this as "trying to help the customer by limiting abusers", or something similar, when really, the only abuser is the carrier selling a service they don't intend to perform, because they would have to spend money to do that.

The important part is not whether some traffic is throttled, the important part is who makes the decision as to what gets throttled. If I buy 1 Mb/s mobile IP access, and then the carrier throttles my connection to 1 Mb/s, that's my decision. If I buy "LTE full-speed IP access", and then the carrier throttles my videos to 1 Mb/s with no option to opt out, it is not.

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