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Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

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Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#141
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In part, because most video sites will adapt the stream to the achievable bandwidth. Why is that a reason to force them to use less than their fair share of available bandwidth? > In part, because if the throttle all bulk data transfers over some minimum size, all the time, most people are only going to notice on video streaming, since videos are the most frequent bulk transfers. How is that a reason for anything,…

In a world (like ours) with limited bandwidth, you sometimes want to limit flows in a way to produce the least harm. Throttling different streams has different effects on user happiness. For instance, if you are 100 Mbits over capacity, you could either: (a) Throttle 100 users Netflix streams, which drop from 1080p to 720p (b) Throttle email, it backs up causing hour-long email delays. One is obviously less harmful.

> In a world (like ours) with limited bandwidth

That is actually the first mistake in your argument in this context. The bandwidth limits in mobile networks are first and foremost an effect of decisions by the network operators, not an inherent property of the world.

> you sometimes want to limit flows in a way to produce the least harm. Throttling different streams has different effects on user happiness.

Well, maybe. But I would argue that that is both (a) prone to erroneous valuation, if only due to conflicts of interest, and (b) almost always only the case to any significant degree in very artificial scenarios, not in the real world.

> For instance, if you are 100 Mbits over capacity, you could either:

> (a) Throttle 100 users Netflix streams, which drop from 1080p to 720p

> (b) Throttle email, it backs up causing hour-long email delays.

> One is obviously less harmful.

Primarily, that's a nonsensical scenario. For one, you are never "over capacity". That's what capacity means: The maximum speed at which you can transfer data. You never transfer data faster than you can. You are only "over capacity" in the sense that the link is congested, but that isn't a data rate that you are "over the limit", it's just that the queue starts to grow.

But also, your scenario implies that throttling email more than its fair share somehow would cause "hour-long email delays". Now, I dunno, what would that look like? 100 users using netflix, ~ 10 Mb/s each, for a total of 1000 Mb/s, and one user sending emails at 1000 Mb/s, which would then lead to the email sender being throttled to 950 Mb/s under fair sharing, which ... still would not lead to anything remotely like "hour-long email delays", despite being a totally contrived scenario?

It looks more like you just made up one bad thing and one not so bad thing, and then noted that the worse thing is worse. Which is fine. But it is completely irrelevant to the discussion if you do not demonstrate how those two options are actually options in the same situation, and how they, respectively, compare to fair sharing.

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#142
post #108

For both wired and wireless, it's time for legislation to address exactly what it and isn't permitted with regard to advertised speeds, throttling, and total usage -- both with respect to users, and with respect to peering. It's not just an issue of policy, but one of transparency too. It's a fact of life that more people will want to consume data than a network can support. So where are we going to make the cut? Dim…

>Diminish everyone's usage proportionally? Provide a guaranteed minimum? A minimum per minute, per hour, or per day? Prioritize traffic based on type? Implement caps? Allow people to pay for more speed, higher caps, or both? In the case of limited bandwidth, the "fairest" way would be to enforce a moving average cap. The most economically efficient way would be some sort of dynamic price system[1]. >But since people…

And how is this indicated to the user? At least the ride hailing apps displayed their "surge pricing" before you used the service. As I'm traveling through town and being handed off to different cell towers, am I going to see a pop-up saying the current rate on this tower is XXXX amount and allow me to accept or not? The flexible invisible cost is just not a good thing for end users

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#143
I don't see an issue with throttling video at all - the idea that I can bang a 4K stream down on LTE, which might be limited to 100mbit from the tower for everyone, means that's necessarily going to happen.

That said, I use secure encryption to prevent the ISP from viewing my browsing habits. Throttling VPN use carte-blanche because you don't know what's in there would be overkill.

It seems to me that it's best to just throttle based on allowing burst usage and treating all bulk downloading including streaming video identically.

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I pay for a carrier, I want to know what I should be able to count on, and what I can't count on. I can't up vote this enough. I think false advertising really needs to be clamped down on across the board, but when it's something I understand the nuances of it really gets to me. Why do companies find it so difficult to just say what it is they are selling in clear concise language, without being purposely mislea…

When I pay for compute on AWS, I get an SLA with guarantees. Why are citizens afforded any less?

You do realize that AWS SLA is about as much BS as the "unlimited" cell data plans we're discussing here, right?

All it says is that if they fail to deliver service, with a bunch of exclusions that make it very unlikely they will ever do so, then you get to not pay for that service that you didn't get.

http://aws.amazon.com/compute/sla/

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#145
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a fair analogy. Netflix had the bandwidth available and wanted to connect it, Comcast just refused.

That's not really accurate either. Netflix's ISP didn't have the bandwidth available. That was the whole dispute. Their ISP wanted a free peering agreement and Comcast just refused.

Netflix bought bandwidth from more than one company. That's why if you used a VPN or a different type of device for streaming, it would work. Comcast wasn't throttling Netflix in general, they had an oversubscribed link with Cogent.

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a large US city and have one cable provider as my only viable high speed option. The dsl provider which I would have preferred hasn't upgraded the last 50 meters of lines going to my house, and said they had no plans to. The top speed they could offer me was 3Mbps. EDIT: In comparison, the same dsl provider on streets that have had their lines upgraded offers 100Mbps plans for about $30 less per month than…

You'd think there might be a business opportunity in this kind of situation for an ultra low cost, short range WISP. Like, if you could identify a bunch of scenarios like this where last mile issues have left behind neighbourhoods where there might be a few dozen potential customers (identify using speedtest.net data or something?), it would be possible to plug in a box on a utility pole at the edge of the existing c…

...plug in a box on a utility pole at the edge of the existing coverage and then supply the participating households with modems. I don't know what the cost of that kind of infrastructure is...

It's very expensive.

...or how much of an issue it would be to plug into what's already there, but hopefully it's not terrible assuming the existing provider would agree to let you in.

They won't let you in.

I guess the main risk is that doing this might wake up the provider who would then finish their rollout to get those customers back, and undercut you on price.

And they also do that. National ISPs can afford to lose money in one city in the short term but you can't.

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#147
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I pay for a carrier, I want to know what I should be able to count on, and what I can't count on. I can't up vote this enough. I think false advertising really needs to be clamped down on across the board, but when it's something I understand the nuances of it really gets to me. Why do companies find it so difficult to just say what it is they are selling in clear concise language, without being purposely mislea…

What false advertising? The ad clearly reads "up to 50mbps" and the 1.1mbps the copper in your neighbourhood allows is indeed positively in the 0-50 range! Damn I hate consumer ISPs, with a few small exceptions.

Why is the bill not "Up to $50" though?

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#148
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They had sufficient bandwidth. Netflix paid their ISP for sufficient bandwidth. Comcast just refused to connect to it, to the detriment of Comcast's customers.

Cogent (Netflix's ISP) and Comcast had a peering agreement which spelled out costs and ratios; Cogent sold Netflix bandwidth (probably very cheaply) that they could not provide without breaching their peering agreement. Cogent was unwilling to fulfill the financial terms of their peering agreement in order to provide the product that they had sold to Netflix. Somehow, people think this is Comcast's fault?

You can also turn that statement around. Customers have paid Comcast to access the internet (Netflix) and Comcast didn't want to upgrade his peering with backbone providers forcing Netflix to pay them interconnection.

In this case Comcast is getting money from it's customers and then Netflix has to pay extra for the traffic Comcast's customers requested and paid for.

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#149
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a world (like ours) with limited bandwidth, you sometimes want to limit flows in a way to produce the least harm. Throttling different streams has different effects on user happiness. For instance, if you are 100 Mbits over capacity, you could either: (a) Throttle 100 users Netflix streams, which drop from 1080p to 720p (b) Throttle email, it backs up causing hour-long email delays. One is obviously less harmful.

> In a world (like ours) with limited bandwidth That is actually the first mistake in your argument in this context. The bandwidth limits in mobile networks are first and foremost an effect of decisions by the network operators, not an inherent property of the world. > you sometimes want to limit flows in a way to produce the least harm. Throttling different streams has different effects on user happiness. Well, mayb…

It's an inherent property of the world that bandwidth is expensive, so it's always going to be limited.

There are two types of protocols: those that adjust the quantity of data sent depending on conditions, and those that don't. Streaming video does -- if throughput drops, it changes video encoding to send fewer bytes. Most other protocols don't -- they just get slow but they still need to send all the bytes eventually. There's a solid argument for throttling the first kind when congestion hits.

There's a huge literature on this. Start at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_measure if you want to learn more.

Re: Wireless Carrier Throttling of Online Video Is Pervasive: Study

#150
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a matter of economics. An ISP could build the required infrastructure to support everyone's peak desired simultaneous usage... but then they'd probably have to quadruple (or worse) what people are paying for it just to break even, which the market wouldn't support, so they'd go out of business. The same way restaurants could invest in enough space to handle all demand for Friday nights and Valentine's Day... but…

Didn't we already give the ISPs money to upgrade their infrastructure? Something like $400 billion.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-book-of-broken-promis_b_5...
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