I feel like im talking to the borg • Hacker News Board

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#341

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 6:01 PM UTC

dorgo wrote: post #300

koheripbal wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting aside that you've given up entirely on any form of discourse with the account you're responding to... You aren't only talking to that account - you are having a public conversation in front of millions of people. ...and if the discussion goes something like: Company A: "We believe in xyz." Twitter B: "You are an ." ...then what benefit have you delivered to the other millions of people reading? All you are do…

> To them, a logical, well reasoned, and UN-emotional argument is persuasive, and far more likely to help you achieve your goal. I'm not so sure. Know your audience. On hackernews I agree. But there are forums where nobody reads or understands your well reasoned arguments..

So why use those forums? If all you can do on twitter or reddit and whatnot is engage in pointless flamewars, why post there at all, or read them?

What does anyone gain by spending time exchanging "biting sarcasm" (as per a sibling comment) on an online platform?

Are there issues that we need to resolve with debate? If so, will those issues be resolved by slagging off each other on the internets? If not, is it any point doing exactly that, instead of trying (very hard) to have a level-headed, thoughtful conversation?

(And I do mean _trying_ very very hard because the internets has made little snotty know-it-alls of many of us and that just sucks).

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#342

Post by whalabi » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

Well that was bizarre, creepy, dystopian.

For those who missed it:

The tweets are labelled "Sprinklr" which is enterprise social media management software.

So I don't think Britney is sitting in the warehouse on her lunch break helping to spread the word about how lovely Amazon is.

I think it's a marketing drone sending marketing tweets from fake accounts, possibly tied to to people.

The replies are coming from accounts which all follow no one (so they're not legit accounts being used the way people use Twitter - they're just used to spray pro-Amazon tweets)

Is Amazon actually behind these accounts?

It's legitimately disturbing and my I'm feeling a boycott coming on.

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#343

Post by gambiting » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #125

I feel like this is twitter in a nutshell, and that goes for everyone involved. The very first response is "eally like? cause your workers are liars?" There we go, now the entire conversation is everything or nothing, you're either with them or against them. Then it's off into personal attacks and arguments about followers and etc. Nobody is talking to each other in any of that. They're just posting for everyone else…

This is exactly how it feels. None of the messages to the reps are actually directed at them - it's a show made for everyone else to see and retweet and get upset over.

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#344

Post by laughinghan » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #256

Barrin92 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you're either with them or against them. well if you're dealing with a corporate entity the size of amazon and their weird bot/shill twitter army that's pretty much the only sane response. Do you seriously think if you chat nicely with these PR people they're going to hook you up with someone who matters and amazon is going to have a nice chat about their anti-union practises with you over a cup of tea? Makes about…

Putting aside that you've given up entirely on any form of discourse with the account you're responding to... You aren't only talking to that account - you are having a public conversation in front of millions of people. ...and if the discussion goes something like: Company A: "We believe in xyz." Twitter B: "You are an ." ...then what benefit have you delivered to the other millions of people reading? All you are do…

Company A: "We believe in xyz."

Twitter B: "You are an ."

But that's not what happened. "really like? cause your workers are liars?" is not an insult, it's pointing out that your workers contradict you.

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#345

Post by stnmtn » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 6:20 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #336

stnmtn wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should people not complain about a company's poor work conditions on a public forum? I'm really confused, because what you're arguing here is that there is no reason to say anything ever unless you are taking immediate action to fix that. I mean, by your logic, couldn't I ask you why you are making this post and not instead making lasting change by starting a competing social media site where no non-impactful convers…

By all means, complain. Complain to the perpetrators of the injustice and complain to the government that is supposed to regulate them. Don't complain to the victims that they are not acting sufficiently victim-like to confirm your preconceived notions of what their lives are like based on that 10 minute John Oliver segment you watched.

I mean the people she's complaining to are part of the problem, they are people who are being paid to post pro-amazon content on twitter that share accounts, most likely using something like sprinklr.

If these were real people just saying this, then sure, but you can not actually look at this exchange and think amazon doesn't come out looking even worse.

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#346

Post by benj111 » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 6:27 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #337

benj111 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we're on the same page, I understood qwsxyh to be making reference to hacker news. In view of that the up/down votes clearly aren't what make twitter what it is, or else HN would be the same, and I hope we can both agree that it isn't. So what is the difference? Id say culture, you're saying traditions (potato, potahto), so what is that culture? I would say at minimum communicating a reason for downvotes, rather t…

I think culture plays a part, but the medium does to, I'd argue a great deal. The differences between HN's system, and twitters is pretty obvious IMO. Just at the most obvious twitter limits the amount of text. I doubt the average HN post would even fit on twitter. That's a pretty significant difference just to start. >So it isn't about "you're proving my point by down-voting me" I don't know what you mean by that.

"I don't know what you mean by that"

I was fully explaining my point of view, because I don't think it boils down to that.

I would argue that HN's voting system tends to encourage shorter comments. I personally find it annoying to write a well reasoned 10 point essay and get downvotes and no feedback, is there one particular point you're disagreeing with or what? So I would argue that long comments survive despite the voting system.

Could you suggest other differences in medium that you think make the difference? Moderation?

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#347

Post by projektfu » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 6:32 PM UTC

einpoklum wrote: post #296

projektfu wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a relative of the “lump of work” fallacy. These workers are currently hired by amazon and its contractors because amazon has already displaced other forms of work (retail, logistics, call centers). Experience shows that increases in productivity caused increases in living standards and work conditions across the board. So, usually, one would expect people to be better off with automation even if there’s some…

"Experience shows that increases in productivity caused increases in living standards and work conditions across the board." Only if you average it across entire societies. For example, living conditions in many peripheral de-industrialized areas in various countries often deteriorate for long periods of time while central cities benefit from cheaper products. So it's not just about "transitional friction" - it's hug…

I think deindustrialization is not exactly a symptom of productivity growth. It's more of a symptom of loss of labor competitiveness, possibly from a failure in productivity growth relative to other industries. Mobility of capital has a lot to do with it. For example, an area with lots of factories that popped up at the same time, and now they're reaching end of life and the capital owner will rebuild them in a different location where labor is more competitive.

If you think about the postwar boom, there was massive productivity growth in many regions that saw continuously increasing labor force participation and internal immigration. Detroit comes to mind. In the low-productivity 80s (when productivity growth reached 0 at one point) factories started closing because they were uncompetitive with foreign producers. Northern industrial centers started evaporating as they were replaced by southern ones with similar productivity but lower overall labor cost.

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#348

Post by laughinghan » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #304

asark wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This thread was about the term, and that's the definition. If you have to change it to "you'll know it when you see it" then perhaps the definition is not so useful. The biggest companies have started from the smallest of ventures so your personal perception of size and importance has nothing to do with the term's qualification. You keep ignoring important parts of what's commonly considered the defining properties…

It doesn't seem that way, it is that way. If you have to muddy the definition to make it fit then it's not very practical. I sense your particular context being a class of people who have power through ownership of means. My point is that ownership is available to anyone, either by buying shares (fine if you say that's difficult) OR by starting their own business (literally minutes away on the internet). If anyone ca…

> If you have to muddy the definition to make it fit

They're not muddying the definition. You're ignoring part of the definition.

Everyone has been consistent about what the definition is, and you have consistently pretended that part of the definition isn't there.

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#349

Post by manigandham » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 6:37 PM UTC

asark wrote: post #327

manigandham wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't seem that way, it is that way. If you have to muddy the definition to make it fit then it's not very practical. I sense your particular context being a class of people who have power through ownership of means. My point is that ownership is available to anyone, either by buying shares (fine if you say that's difficult) OR by starting their own business (literally minutes away on the internet). If anyone ca…

> It doesn't seem that way, it is that way. If you have to muddy the definition to make it fit then it's not very practical. OK. I wrote a really long response attempting to get through, but frankly, at this point, you should write a paper and submit to some journals, because this whole line of reasoning would be a significant finding if it stands up to scrutiny.

Everything after that first sentence is entirely about your interpretation of it.

Brevity is a key signal of clarity and cohesiveness. If it takes a journal paper to even attempt a discussion then this entire concept (under your interpretation) is suspect.

Re: I feel like im talking to the borg

#350

Post by laughinghan » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 6:49 PM UTC

greedo wrote: post #228

mft_ wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in a large and friendly company, in which there seems to be a general fear of speaking up. if a company as employee-friendly as mine has difficulty in moving people towards an open speak-up culture, I think it’s totally reasonable to assume that many companies aren't successful at this, either. It should therefore be reasonable for an Amazon warehouse employee to point out the counter-case for their experience…

My company has a quarterly "engagement" survey. If our supervisor doesn't get a 5 rating (highest) from us, he gets in trouble, so as shit rolls downhill, we get in trouble. The majority of the team answers the survey questions dishonestly, so as to avoid rolling shit. The others feel it's their only way of expressing discontent short of leaving.

Wow, that's terrible.

What exactly happens to the supervisor, and what exactly does he do to all of you?

What do you think could be done to make this situation better?

I wonder if something different, maybe more serious needs to happen to the supervisor for getting a low rating? Or I guess the issue is, he gets to retaliate for a whole quarter and your opportunity to ding him further won't be until 3 months later. Maybe there needs to be an avenue for immediately reporting this kind of retaliation, with clear consequences for him? If the higher-ups don't have the kind of trust it would take to create such an avenue, I dunno what can be done. I guess that's what unions are supposed to be for, but the situation already sounds so broken. I guess if a union already existed and was trusted, it could serve as such an avenue of last-resort.