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Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

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Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#201

Post by microcolonel »

mymythisisthis wrote: post #95
dep_b wrote: post #81

As incomes rise in China people will demand other things from the government than food, shelter and a comfortable middle class life. Hong Kong was ahead of the rest of China since they have been living pretty liberal under UK rule and were more prosperous. Whatever they do in Hong Kong now will not stop from things happening all over China at a given point.

China is where the USA was in the 1950s; lots of industrial growth but lots of pollutions, a population happy about all the new wealth and not willing to protest.

There's lots of demand for protest in China, protest just happens to be among the few illegal acts successfully suppressed in China.

The two countries are absolutely incomparable on these particular points. Prosperity alone does not quell protests, most protests in the U.S. are decidedly bourgeois.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#202

Post by hos234 »

aikah wrote: post #159
dep_b wrote: post #81

As incomes rise in China people will demand other things from the government than food, shelter and a comfortable middle class life. Hong Kong was ahead of the rest of China since they have been living pretty liberal under UK rule and were more prosperous. Whatever they do in Hong Kong now will not stop from things happening all over China at a given point.

> Whatever they do in Hong Kong now will not stop from things happening all over China at a given point. It's interesting how 30 years ago, western economists were trying to sell everybody how moving all our industries to China will eventually turn the latter into a democracy because economic growth and democracy goes hand in hand. 30 years later, the Chinese communist party has never been as powerful as it is today…

It's a fragile kind of power. If Xi croaks tomorrow morning, god knows whether the current power structures will stay intact. There are lots and lots of factions that have very different interests.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#203

Post by dep_b »

alexmlamb2 wrote: post #101
dep_b wrote: post #81

As incomes rise in China people will demand other things from the government than food, shelter and a comfortable middle class life. Hong Kong was ahead of the rest of China since they have been living pretty liberal under UK rule and were more prosperous. Whatever they do in Hong Kong now will not stop from things happening all over China at a given point.

This is just the brainwashing that you've received growing up in the west. I know because I grew up in the US, but I've learned more about other countries and realized that things aren't really like this.

I can't help it, my government doesn't allow me to read critical Chinese resources that could convince me that what I learned was actually wrong.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#204

Post by me_me_me »

dragonsh wrote: post #120
dep_b wrote: post #81

As incomes rise in China people will demand other things from the government than food, shelter and a comfortable middle class life. Hong Kong was ahead of the rest of China since they have been living pretty liberal under UK rule and were more prosperous. Whatever they do in Hong Kong now will not stop from things happening all over China at a given point.

These are fake news to foment Hong Kong protestors by conflating facts. I hope such fake news do not become part of HN. You are absolutely right Hong Kong cannot even provide proper shelter or health system or good education to more than 40% of its people, who live in a space smaller than prison cell. All these protests are due to this simmering discontent. I do not think living in a prison cell size apartment and th…

+10c

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#205

Post by loyukfai »

teknologist wrote: post #76
loyukfai wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very much untrue, CCTV, People's Daily, Global Times, now those are CCP mouthpieces. That being said, one is not being unreasonable to suspect their level of editorial independence could be influenced.

The "whataboutism" of naming other media outlets doesn't really help your argument here. You only just have to open the SCMP front page to find them calling military deployments in a stadium near Hong Kong "drills", citing anonymous sources that say "they are not of concern" and quoting liberally from anonymous posters on Chinese message boards spouting hate.

I just did and I couldn't find the thing you mentioned, mind to share the link?

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#206

Post by rory096 »

jbay808 wrote: post #197
9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your timeline is a bit muddled here: the invasion of Iraq (involving a great many Western countries) was in 2003, the Arab Spring (where Western countries by and large steered well clear) was in 2010.

Other than the US and Britain and a token force from Australia, which western countries invaded Iraq?

Don't forget Poland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_the_willing#Usage...

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#207

Post by lstodd »

krageon wrote: post #148
mc32 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I’ve read (which obviously is removed from the “ground” and has bias) China has inserted agent provocateurs, but haven’t coöpted the movement to that degree. It appears to be mostly grass roots though some of the lighter moderates evaporating leaving the moderates and hard core protesters to fight on which results in heavier tactics.

Assuming that a powerful nation has not deeply owned every large-scale protest is in my experience extremely naive. Either the protest has no teeth or it's penetrated all the way to the top with either government agents or extensive surveillance. This means that action outside of what the government feels like dealing with means arrests (no matter how temporary) and that any action that is taken means that the govern…

Assuming a modern protest has anything that can be called 'top' is extremely naive.

There is no hierarchy that can be suborned.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#208

Post by alangibson »

dep_b wrote: post #81

As incomes rise in China people will demand other things from the government than food, shelter and a comfortable middle class life. Hong Kong was ahead of the rest of China since they have been living pretty liberal under UK rule and were more prosperous. Whatever they do in Hong Kong now will not stop from things happening all over China at a given point.

When I read statements like this, I always think of a quote by Noam Chomsky:

"Violence usually works."

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#209

Post by chewz »

jbay808 wrote: post #197
9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your timeline is a bit muddled here: the invasion of Iraq (involving a great many Western countries) was in 2003, the Arab Spring (where Western countries by and large steered well clear) was in 2010.

Other than the US and Britain and a token force from Australia, which western countries invaded Iraq?

Estonia, Salvador, Bulgaria, Moldova, Albania, Ukraine, Denmark, Czech Republic, South Korea, Tonga, Azerbaijan, Singapore, Bosnia and Hercegovina, Macedonia, Latvia, Poland, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Mongolia, Georgia, Slovakia, Lithuania, Italy, Spain, Thailand, Philippines, Iceland... and some more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93...

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#210

Post by sbmthakur »

simonh wrote: post #71
adventured wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China only got stronger since the Tinanmen situation It's a rather remarkable difference at this point. The US economy was 16 times larger than China at the end of 1989. Japan was nine times larger. China was only about 45% larger than South Korea back then. China's military spending today is equal to at least a third the size of its economy in 1989 inflation adjusted. There's a reason why there are no major protes…

I can understand Middle Eastern and muslim majority governments taking that view. I don't understand the ordinary Muslim believer that is prepared to go out and protest against America or Europe thinking that way. Why should they care? After all the reasons you give for treading carefully against China all apply to the US and the west just as much. Take Pakistan. It gets billions in military and economic aid from the…

Pakistan believes that China is the only reliable partner when it comes to geopolitics. Due to which the establishment suppresses and doesn't allow any protests against China. In a recent interview when Imran Khan(Pak PM) was asked about mass detention of Muslims in China, he replied by saying that frankly, I don’t know much[1]. I've seen several Pakistanis criticising this stance because Pakistan was formed on the basis of Islam.

1. https://www.thequint.com/news/world/pakistan-pm-imran-khan-o...

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