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Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

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Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#71

This is really bad and definitely triggers memorys of the Tiananmen massacre. I'm very interested how the rest of the world is going to react to these developments considering the position of China only got stronger since the Tinanmen situation. I recognized that the reaction of e.g. Germany was considerably weaker to the HK protests than e.g. the Arab Spring protests, but I guess we just have to wait and see. Edit:…

> China only got stronger since the Tinanmen situation It's a rather remarkable difference at this point. The US economy was 16 times larger than China at the end of 1989. Japan was nine times larger. China was only about 45% larger than South Korea back then. China's military spending today is equal to at least a third the size of its economy in 1989 inflation adjusted. There's a reason why there are no major protes…

I can understand Middle Eastern and muslim majority governments taking that view. I don't understand the ordinary Muslim believer that is prepared to go out and protest against America or Europe thinking that way. Why should they care? After all the reasons you give for treading carefully against China all apply to the US and the west just as much.

Take Pakistan. It gets billions in military and economic aid from the west and does a lot of trade with the US and Europe, but protests against the west are common. I really don't get what it is about China that, in the eyes of the Muslim man in the street, gives it a free pass to mass intern and re-educate muslims into not being muslims.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#73
Why aren't we talking more about the history of HK's creation, namely the Opium wars? I suspect that the majority of people that feel strongly about China's behaviour don't actually have any idea what the British did to China in the middle of the 19th century, namely: in the style of a mafia get 10s of millions of Chinese addicted to Opium and then go to war with them when China tried to put an end to the trade. It is by all today's measures what I'm sure the majority of people would call evil.

I am of course not at all advocating today's Chinese violence. I just don't understand how any of us have a leg to stand on in feeling outraged. This is the world, the so-called modern world, that, by using mobile phones and modern medicine, we've implicitly signed up for. HK is but one example of the price of modernity. What if native Americans or indigenous Australians rose up in the same way, asking for their land back? Or Indians and Africans rose up asking for their natural resources and slave labour back?

The real "crime" here is that we're so morally bankrupt and out of touch with history that all we can do is watch and tweet hashtags. Globalisation is here to stay. The quality of Western life is fundamentally dependent on Chinese labour, manufacturing and technology. We don't get to reap the benefits of that and at the same time arrogantly and unreflectively denounce their political policies. And to repeat, this is not a justification of China's recent stance on HK or any of its other foreign or domestic policies.

Perhaps we should boycott everything Chinese? Of course that is never going to happen. But we can at least help each other remember how exactly the West came to be. Though of course we don't because we're the top dogs and no one is forcing us to. Which I might argue is the true source of the outrage that most of us feel in hearing the news from HK: outrage that something is actually forcing us to reflect on our own circumstances. And what better scapegoat to deflect those difficult emotions than a quintessentially foreign, little understood far far-away culture.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#74
post #53

The title makes it sound like Shenzen is not part of China. You don't "enter" part of your own country.

> The title makes it sound like Shenzen is not part of China. You don't "enter" part of your own country.

Believe me or not, 10 years ago Shenzhen had a wall around it to separate if from the rest of the country.

For all intent and purposes, SZ does feels like almost like a different country. Not to the same extend as HK, but still.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SCMP has become a CCP mouthpiece after Jack Ma bought it.

Very much untrue, CCTV, People's Daily, Global Times, now those are CCP mouthpieces. That being said, one is not being unreasonable to suspect their level of editorial independence could be influenced.

The "whataboutism" of naming other media outlets doesn't really help your argument here.

You only just have to open the SCMP front page to find them calling military deployments in a stadium near Hong Kong "drills", citing anonymous sources that say "they are not of concern" and quoting liberally from anonymous posters on Chinese message boards spouting hate.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#77

Oh man they absolutely cannot come into Hong Kong, it would be a totally stupid move. Honestly in the grand scheme of things they can afford for Hong Kong to just descend into chaos and completely collapse economically or whatever. The minute they send troops over the whole picture changes and everyone loses

> they absolutely cannot come into Hong Kong, it would be a totally stupid move Strategically, for China? Yes. Politically, for Xi? Maybe not. Remember that Xi is a dictator. Moves that boost him in the short term at China’s long-term expense are on the board.

Xi is very much a dictator, but he also needs money to maintain his dictatorship. HK for all its faults and bads is still quite important to the Chinese economy.

That's why we haven't become Xinjiang, IMO.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#79
post #37
post #4

Sigh. Hopefully we won't get a repeat of the Tiananmen square massacre. I've not seen any nations speak out about the HK protests. Unlike, say, when many expressed support for the Arab Spring.

The UK got in a bit of a row with China about it: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/03/foreign-offi...

I find this quite interesting:

"In the Joint Declaration, the PRC Government stated that it had decided to resume the exercise of sovereignty over Hong Kong (including Hong Kong Island, Kowloon, and the New Territories) with effect from 1 July 1997, and the UK Government declared that it would hand over Hong Kong to the PRC with effect from 1 July 1997. The PRC Government also declared its basic policies regarding Hong Kong in the document.

In accordance with the "one country, two systems" principle agreed between the UK and the PRC, the socialist system of PRC would not be practised in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR), and Hong Kong's previous capitalist system and its way of life would remain unchanged for a period of 50 years until 2047." [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How’s Russia working out for us and for the Russian people these days? Or Belarus, or Poland?

It's working out fine for 'us,' mostly. Putin has exhausted his only card though, the energy card, which was used to give Russia's economy a jump; now there's no follow-up maneuver. The Russian people have of course started to take notice of that fact. Russia is an increasingly inconsequential regional power, with a relatively weak and small economy (now smaller than Canada; about to be smaller than Australia). Gener…

Poland’s economy is highly subsidized by the German, French and Italian taxpayers, the only significant payers to the EU budget.
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