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Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

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Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#381

Post by esotericn »

neogodless wrote: post #194
DataGata wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why will public chargers be slow? We should assume that those who provide public charging services (the gas stations of the future) will be trying to optimize throughput + convenience store sales. DC fast chargers currently get you 40 miles in ten minutes[1] (that sucks!) so your extra 20 miles gets you an extra 5 minute wait. Presumably that wait can be "limited" by getting your shopping done or grabbing a bite to e…

I think your example/link illustrates the point. > These stations are expensive (up to $100,000) and require more power than your house, so you’ll never have one of these in your garage. In other words, most chargers are not going to be "the best." Especially ones in less affluent neighborhoods, within a short drive (or on the way) of wherever you happen to be. Maybe it's a 10 minute round trip for a 5 minute wait (a…

$100K doesn't seem like that much to me. Compare to the costs of like, having a massive petrol tank under the floor with regular maintenance, lorries filling it all the time, the amount of space required for that.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I imagine the cost of installing a new petrol station anywhere close to civilization would dwarf that.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#382

Post by xenocyon »

hwillis wrote: post #369
xenocyon wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per your circumstances (living in Boston, already possess a car, drive occasionally), a new Tesla purchase might be non-ideal even besides the charging issue, from a climate standpoint. There is a breakeven point where your cumulative carbon savings from using Boston electricity (i.e. mostly natural gas) versus gasoline intersect the one-time carbon emissions from manufacturing a new automobile. For folks who already…

No, electric vehicles are the best option in nearly all cases. Natural gas makes Boston electricity one of the cleaner grids in the country. For my zip, a LR Model 3 makes 131 MPG[1] per unit of CO2, while manufacturing produces ~5 tonnes more CO2 (an SR will be ~3.5 tonnes)[2]. That's a break even period of only 15,000 miles. Unless your gas car will be tossed away in under 15,000 miles you are adding more CO2 to th…

That's interesting. The last time I did the math it looked like the breakeven point would be well over a decade for me (approx 4000 driven miles per year). It may be that things have changed since.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#383

Post by throw0101a »

ed312 wrote: post #231
throw0101a wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully Charged did an episode on this: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaEhBjt1ls However, in many cities the posts are not in the sidewalk, but on people's properties, so as to allow clearer pedestrian paths. This is generally true in Toronto (where the story is written), especially on residential side-streets.

"clearer pedestrian paths" seems like a really bad trade-off for putting public infrastructure on private property (and all the right of way / access issues involved). I wonder if, since the wiring is clearly there, something on-sidewalk could be added (something parking meter-ish).

This has probably already been taken care of when the land went from public to private ownership I'm sure there various clauses and agreements in place via various by-laws and such.

A pretty typical street in the older parts of my city (use Street View):

* https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Westminster+Ave,+Toront...

Putting poles in the sidewalk would be a non-starter and anyone suggesting it would be laughed out of the room.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#384

Post by esotericn »

chc wrote: post #300
zip1234 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow people figured out how to make gasoline fueling infrastructure, which is amazing in itself. Extracting fuel out of the ground, transporting to refinery, transporting to destination holes scattered nearly everywhere around the world and pumping refined fuel back in, and then pumping back out of the ground into little fuel tanks in cars for it to be burned. If someone described that to me as a plan for internal…

I know, it's amazing how it seems like it should be a relatively simple problem to solve, and yet it remains unsolved in real life. Hence my question: How do you propose to make that happen?

Time.

We've had less than seven years of a legitimately usable EV even existing. Seven years.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#385

Post by m463 »

wffurr wrote: post #127

Yet another reason the real answer to the climate crisis isn't EVs - it's public transit, bicycles, e-bikes, scooters, e-scooters, walking, etc. All these other modes are much lower impact on the environment than purchasing and operating an EV, much less an ICE.

Actually, the switch from incandescent to LED street lights could easily smooth this over.

The old incandescent street and traffic lights were frequently hundreds of watts, on long chains over large distances.

This can be repurposed to car charging with little in the way of power delivery redesign.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#386

Post by m463 »

golover721 wrote: post #204
wffurr wrote: post #127

Yet another reason the real answer to the climate crisis isn't EVs - it's public transit, bicycles, e-bikes, scooters, e-scooters, walking, etc. All these other modes are much lower impact on the environment than purchasing and operating an EV, much less an ICE.

It’s never going to be a one size fits all solution. While all the things you mention work for “some” people, an EV is the best option for “some” people.

Like old people, or people who don't want to fall down and break a wrist or hip.

(and then there's what elon musk says -- all lease return model 3's will be added to the tesla automonous taxi network)

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#387

Post by esotericn »

gist wrote: post #88
stcredzero wrote: post #4

I used to run an extension cord out of my 2nd floor window, but I wasn't parking on the street. My space was off the driveway, behind a fence and a gate, but only about 12 feet from the curb. More recently, I had been parking an electric car in my apartment's lot, and running an extension cord from the exercise room, out to the car. Then the apartment decided to close off those outlets. In both cases, the car's batte…

> I used to run an extension cord out of my 2nd floor window > More recently, I had been parking an electric car in my apartment's lot, and running an extension cord from the exercise room, out to the car. Then the apartment decided to close off those outlets. Won't even get to what I am sure others have raised about safety issues. My question is why do you go to this effort? What in you makes you want to go to this…

Drastic reduction in pollution of my local environment.

Eventual huge reduction of CO2 emissions (once mining and other activities become fossil-fuel free enterprises). Small reduction now assuming local electricity sources are CO2-free.

Perhaps me aiming to reduce my CO2 emissions won't make a difference. I'm going to do it anyway. You should too.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#388

Post by m463 »

bin0 wrote: post #310
wffurr wrote: post #127

Yet another reason the real answer to the climate crisis isn't EVs - it's public transit, bicycles, e-bikes, scooters, e-scooters, walking, etc. All these other modes are much lower impact on the environment than purchasing and operating an EV, much less an ICE.

And yet, public transportation is not the same. Americans love their cars because we are a very independent people who appreciate the ability to go where we want, when we want. An EV could at least conceivably be a replacement, though that will be difficult until they can charge in a time comparable to that of a gas station fueling and go as long or longer. I don't want to have to plan around some schedule set by a c…

Public transportation takes a lot of time.

It doesn't necessarily lead to an efficient workforce.

The hour of commute time saved by driving could probably be translated into percentage points of GNP for a country.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#389

Post by Phillipharryt »

halbritt wrote: post #331
stevesimmons wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cycled to work for years in the Netherlands (down to -5C in winter) and Australia (frequenctly 35C+ in summer). The secret in both cases is: (i) keep appropriate clothes at the office; (ii) wear suitable cycling gear (as the Dutch say, there's no such thing as unsuitable weather, only unsuitable clothing); (iii) find a way to shower at work; (iv) be good humored when weather or other mishaps occur...

A German guy told me that was a German expression. Which one of you is right?

Sounds like Dutch humour and phrasing to me, but I've heard Germans use "There's no such thing as poor weather, only poor preparation"

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#390

Post by Reason077 »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #274
Reason077 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not today, because there aren't enough cars to use them - demand needs to catch up. But yes, it's feasible to fill entire parking lots with outlets at every parking spot. There are already examples of this in Norway. The outlets can be built to share and distribute available power, so the grid connection required is not as huge as you might think. In practice this isn't an issue, as it's unlikely that every o…

It's 1.4 kW / Tesla charging at 120 V [1]. That's basically one 15 Amp breaker per charging station. A 30 Amp breaker buys you two cars at once. That's a lot of circuits to run out to the parking lot. https://www.pluglesspower.com/learn/tesla-model-s-charging-h...

Dedicated car chargers usually run on 240V. Typically you'll have 15/16A for ~3.5kW or 30/32A for ~7kW.

You certainly don't need to run separate circuits over long distances for every individual outlet. You can run one higher-power cable to a hub unit which then breaks out to many (maybe dozens) nearby outlets.

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