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Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

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Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#311

Post by torpfactory »

wffurr wrote: post #276
dtwest wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't work in many low density areas (prime example is American suburbia). So your answer for those people is to make them move to a more dense area that can support such solutions. Which isn't a bad idea, but it's a much harder thing to accomplish.

Or build out infrastructure in those areas too. In suburbs, there's plenty of room for separate bike paths and trains. It doesn't require everyone to move into Soviet-style superblocks and towers.

Trains don’t work in suburbs not because of space limitations - there just aren’t enough paying customers per mile of track to make the economics work.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#312

Post by llukas »

chc wrote: post #78
Pfhreak wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the PNW is different, but there are chargers everywhere here. Charge during work, while you shop, etc. Charging will be an incentive or even an expectation. Imagine if your employer said, "We'll fill your tank with gas while you work", people would love that perk. Having free or subsidized charging at work seems like an inevitability to me.

The year of Linux on the desktop seemed like an inevitability for a lot of people. It never happened. I'd love for the future you envision to come true, but I don't see any reason to think it will, given how little movement there is in that direction even in a super EV-friendly region like Southern California. To be clear, there are chargers at my work...but only two, and they're for-profit, so the converted cost per…

In NorCal I got charger in following places: 1) apartment complex (one set of public + separate apartment dweller chargers) 2) at work 3) at supermarket I do shopping most often 4) on public parking in various places

"The future is already here — It's just not very evenly distributed"

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#313

Post by steelframe »

gok wrote: post #257
DataGata wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why will public chargers be slow? We should assume that those who provide public charging services (the gas stations of the future) will be trying to optimize throughput + convenience store sales. DC fast chargers currently get you 40 miles in ten minutes[1] (that sucks!) so your extra 20 miles gets you an extra 5 minute wait. Presumably that wait can be "limited" by getting your shopping done or grabbing a bite to e…

That article is from 2011. Modern fast chargers are 2-3x faster than that, and the next generation (350 kW chargers) will cut times in half again.

> the next generation (350 kW chargers)

It's not even "next generation" chargers; it's next generation EVs at this point. Nearly all new Electrify America rapid charging locations have at least one station that can do 350kW. We're just waiting for EVs like the Taycan* to be released (less than 1 month -- Sept 4th!) to be able to accept charge rates approaching that. EA is on-track to get 2,000 fast chargers at nearly 500 locations up and running by end-of-2019.

*The first generation Taycan will charge at 250kW. But the infrastructure is coming online now as EV manufacturers iterate on battery pack technology to accept faster charge rates.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#314

Post by erik_seaberg »

zip1234 wrote: post #238
kelnos wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your point hits to the heart of it for many people's situations. You can fit car-charging into your routine if you make some very specific changes to your routine to accommodate it, and you must make possibly several hours of time for those changes every X days, or else you'll have a car with a flat battery and no quick fix that will let you complete your regular car-requiring errands. If that errand is "go g…

What if workplaces add chargers as a benefit? I've seen several do it near me. People then just plug their car in at work.

They have a few at work, but people complain about nobody vacating them promptly. With no guarantee that I would reliably have one every day, I'm not sure I see the point, I would always have to be prepared to get home without it.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#315

Post by [deleted] »

steelframe wrote: post #309
wffurr wrote: post #127

Yet another reason the real answer to the climate crisis isn't EVs - it's public transit, bicycles, e-bikes, scooters, e-scooters, walking, etc. All these other modes are much lower impact on the environment than purchasing and operating an EV, much less an ICE.

> Yet another reason the real answer to the climate crisis isn't EVs If our objective is to significantly reduce carbon emissions from people moving from point 'A' to point 'B', fully electric vehicles are a red herring solution. It's more realistic and cheaper to focus on plug-in hybrids. That way you can achieve 90% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions from driving 4-wheeled vehicles without requiring new infrastr…

[deleted]

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#316

Post by ummonk »

erik_seaberg wrote: post #314
zip1234 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if workplaces add chargers as a benefit? I've seen several do it near me. People then just plug their car in at work.

They have a few at work, but people complain about nobody vacating them promptly. With no guarantee that I would reliably have one every day , I'm not sure I see the point, I would always have to be prepared to get home without it.

At my company they do EV valet for the chargers. But it's a big company full of crazy perks.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#317

Post by ummonk »

wffurr wrote: post #264
ummonk wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of travel (both commutes and long distance travel) which is too lengthy for bicycles / scooters, but doesn't have public transit servicing it.

So build the transit. It's cheaper than highways and doubly so when you factor in the private vehicle cost borne by users of those highways.

Electric rail transit is significantly more expensive than highways, and operational costs are really high if you're trying to offer frequent service on less trafficked routes.

Public transit is cost effective for urban cores and commuter rail routes to those urban cores, but everywhere else it's simply not economical.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#318

Post by stevesimmons »

mises wrote: post #302
wffurr wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hard to wear rain gear or budget some time to clean up once you arrive at your destination. Any sort of plan to encourage active commutes should also include facilities in workplaces for this sort of thing. Snow and ice: not as big a problem as you think. Cities and towns can plow and salt bike paths even easier than they do streets. You can also put studded tires on bicycles if you're in a particularly snow…

I think when he says "show up looking presentable", it may be that he needs to be in suits or business casual, preferably unwrinkled. Also, I am exceptionally disinclined to bike through below-zero weather, snow tires or no (referring to the hypothetical canadian). Let alone Texas summers, which regularly hit 105 this time of year. I don't care if there are showers or not, it's just darn unpleasant to be outside this…

I cycled to work for years in the Netherlands (down to -5C in winter) and Australia (frequenctly 35C+ in summer). The secret in both cases is:

(i) keep appropriate clothes at the office;

(ii) wear suitable cycling gear (as the Dutch say, there's no such thing as unsuitable weather, only unsuitable clothing);

(iii) find a way to shower at work;

(iv) be good humored when weather or other mishaps occur...

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#319

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

stetrain wrote: post #109
lonelappde wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking your car to the fuel station every day is a nuisance. ICE cars only need to go about once a week.

In that scenario stopping at a charger every day would be silly. Stop once a week at a charger that's near a grocery store, movie theater, restaurant, etc. Both of my local Tesla chargers are near grocery stores. Electrify America is installing chargers at Wal-Mart. Charging an EV is less like going to a gas station and more like picking a place to go that happens to have EV chargers while you do other things.

> Both of my local Tesla chargers are near grocery stores.

How close? Can you push your cart back to them?

> Electrify America is installing chargers at Wal-Mart.

How many? If we want this whole "electric car" thing to take off, you're looking at, what, 50% of the whole parking lot? Not a half dozen stalls right beside the store.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#320

Post by a1369209993 »

trilila wrote: post #139

I think this points out the elephant in the room: why are so many people in supposedly high income cities not able to buy properties? This is an issue that needs to be solved hand in hand with pollution: less travel, less need for a car, and more living outside overcrowded cities means more living space. So how can we move more jobs to suburbs, where people can work at nearby or home locations and can afford more liv…

> I seriously struggle understanding why at least tech jobs are so centered around crowded cities

Because major (FAANG et al) tech companies are cross-invested with rental/housing businesses[0]. This means that concurrent increases in rent and salary have no effect; employees make 1000$/yr more but pay 1000$/yr more in rent, company('s shareholders) makes 1M$/yr of extra rent but pays 1M$/yr more in salary. Except when the employee tries to switch jobs they're under incresed time pressure (before they run out of savings and can't afford rent), and all of the tech companies benefit from their hiring candidates having less leverage. Note that this doesn't require any communication between companies; each company can see that the situation benefits them based solely on public information, and cross-investment means each company loses nothing by hiking rent and salary simultaneously.

0: Either directly owning them or, more covertly, by most of their shareholders also owning housing stocks.

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