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GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

wsj.com

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Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#191

Post by [deleted] »

seabrookmx wrote: post #19
yardie wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> both companies produced these as regulatory compliance vehicles. At one point I was completely fascinated with the Fiat 500e. Here was an electric car that was stylish, quirky, and could be had on the used market at a great price. But as I got further into it I realized that FCA hated producing this car. Its only reason to exist is to allow them to produce more pollutant vehicles as a regulatory balance. And if it…

> Lotus designed Roadster One of these passed me on the highway the other day. I've only seen a handful of Lotus in my life and never a Tesla Roadster.. it really is a beautiful little car. Pretty small (and impractical for cargo/passengers I'd imagine) though.

[deleted]

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#192

Post by dartdartdart1 »

neogodless wrote: post #24
Someone1234 wrote: post #2

To fully electric. As the article says, both companies produced these as regulatory compliance vehicles. Now they're shifted that effort over to electric because the incentives are better for them. The only companies trying to make hybrids for real are Toyota and Honda. Everyone else is just pumping out low effort compliance vehicles. It is hardly surprising that these vehicles haven't been hugely successful. I'd lov…

While I mostly agree with your statements, I think you could argue that Ford is up there with Honda, if not ahead of them in supporting (if not pushing) hybrids. The Fusion hybrid outsells the Accord hybrid (at least in the U.S.) by a wide margin, and not far behind the Prius. https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10301

Disagree since they lease Toyota's hybrid tech

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#193

Post by sandworm101 »

esotericn wrote: post #190
sandworm101 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> sometime in the 2020s when an electric vehicle becomes cheaper than a gas car. Maybe, but the limitations of electric vehicles still mean it is an apple and oranges comparison. Electric cars are still a long way off in terms of range, towing capacity, utility and winter performance. They might seem great in California, especially as a second car, but they are still a long long way off from replicating how many non…

I drove 1000km in my Tesla in one day last week in Europe. It took approximately 12 hours in total with approx 1.5-2 hours of charging time. "8 hours of battery logistics" is something you've just made up. It's more like you're in range of a rapid charger and it's a non issue, or you're not in which case you cannot do more than a full charge in a day (a European 230V outlet takes more than a day for a full charge, Am…

Good for you. They work well where there are chargers to be had, but the three EV trips I've taken over a few 100km all resulted in silly side trips to find charging stations, which were often closed or the wrong type for the vehicle we had. Those side trips meant more time charging and less time getting to where we wanted to go. Net result = 50% of the drive time was wasted as we dealt with finding charge. It was a laughable situation while on vacation, but totally unacceptable when work is on the line.

And not everyone can afford a tesla. They are still luxury vehicles.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#194

Post by sandworm101 »

xedeon wrote: post #146
sandworm101 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> 1000km/day range using a supercharger. They can do that today. I;m driving a car from 2010. How are the 10+yo teslas doing? And when I say 1000km/day I mean 1000km in perhaps eight hours of driving, not eight hours of driving plus another eight hours of battery logistics. >> and I only drive to the office 3 times a week. So you have a part-time job in an office? That's part of the California narrative. You aren't…

I have a friend who is a real estate agent that drive up to 350 miles (563km) a day. He has zero issues. He does not have to "plan" to recharge since the car's nav system does it for him. >> I mean 1000km in perhaps eight hours of driving, not eight hours of driving plus another eight hours of battery logistics. You are grossly underestimating the current state EV charging (you seem to be just a tad ignorant on the s…

I'm ignorant? Do you know how many supercharging stations there are in my area?

Google "Tesla Chargers BC". The closest one to me now is literally hundreds of kilometers away. There are places near me, places that I sometimes work, that are literally a thousand kilometers from a tesla supercharger. Please do not assume that everyone lives in teslaland.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#195

Post by checktheorder »

gwbas1c wrote: post #111
Someone1234 wrote: post #2

To fully electric. As the article says, both companies produced these as regulatory compliance vehicles. Now they're shifted that effort over to electric because the incentives are better for them. The only companies trying to make hybrids for real are Toyota and Honda. Everyone else is just pumping out low effort compliance vehicles. It is hardly surprising that these vehicles haven't been hugely successful. I'd lov…

You're missing the point: There's basically a point sometime in the 2020s when an electric vehicle becomes cheaper than a gas car. We just don't know that date yet. The biggest cost of an electric car is the battery; and the cost of batteries is dropping very fast. Everything else is significantly cheaper in an electric vehicle except for the cost of the battery. (Tesla used to say there's a "Moore's Law" of battery…

>You're missing the point: There's basically a point sometime in the 2020s when an electric vehicle becomes cheaper than a gas car. We just don't know that date yet.

I think a case could be made for us already being at that point, if the total lifetime cost of car ownership is factored in. ICE vehicles are obscenely mechanically complex. That complexity inevitably leads to lots of repair bills over an ICE vehicle's lifetime.

Contrast that with the average electric car, which doesn't even have a multispeed transmission, just a single-speed step-down. About the most complex mechanical systems in an electric are differentials and shocks. I'm sure someone will pitch in here with a horror story about a high repair bill on an electric, but I'd suggest that's because economies of scale on electrics' parts haven't ramped up yet, and there isn't a large corps of electric-experienced mechanics.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#196

Post by esotericn »

sandworm101 wrote: post #193
esotericn wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drove 1000km in my Tesla in one day last week in Europe. It took approximately 12 hours in total with approx 1.5-2 hours of charging time. "8 hours of battery logistics" is something you've just made up. It's more like you're in range of a rapid charger and it's a non issue, or you're not in which case you cannot do more than a full charge in a day (a European 230V outlet takes more than a day for a full charge, Am…

Good for you. They work well where there are chargers to be had, but the three EV trips I've taken over a few 100km all resulted in silly side trips to find charging stations, which were often closed or the wrong type for the vehicle we had. Those side trips meant more time charging and less time getting to where we wanted to go. Net result = 50% of the drive time was wasted as we dealt with finding charge. It was a…

I agree with you that pretty much every other electric car is a waste of time. In every sense.

The same for chargers below 22kW. Only for overnight or opportunistic use.

I hope that in 10 or so years there's the equivalent of a Civic or Corolla that just keeps on going - new cars are luxury in general.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#197

Post by Eugr »

jedberg wrote: post #58

I'm trying to replace my 2012 SUV with another SUV. I've been looking all over for a plug in hybrid SUV, and there aren't any good ones. I want the plug in hybrid because 95% of the time we do less than 30 miles locally, but once in a while we drive a couple hundred. I would be fine with an all electric SUV with a decent range, but those don't exist either. The model X is not sufficient, and is also terrible for ever…

Other than price, what's wrong with Model X? It is roomy, has 325 miles range and I found it pretty comfortable...

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#198

Post by esotericn »

checktheorder wrote: post #195
gwbas1c wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point: There's basically a point sometime in the 2020s when an electric vehicle becomes cheaper than a gas car. We just don't know that date yet. The biggest cost of an electric car is the battery; and the cost of batteries is dropping very fast. Everything else is significantly cheaper in an electric vehicle except for the cost of the battery. (Tesla used to say there's a "Moore's Law" of battery…

>You're missing the point: There's basically a point sometime in the 2020s when an electric vehicle becomes cheaper than a gas car. We just don't know that date yet. I think a case could be made for us already being at that point, if the total lifetime cost of car ownership is factored in. ICE vehicles are obscenely mechanically complex. That complexity inevitably leads to lots of repair bills over an ICE vehicle's l…

Indeed.

Most of the longer term maintenance costs of Model S's seem to be down to luxury components that aren't necessary (like air suspension, funky door handles, big touchscreen).

An EV Civic could well be bulletproof.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#199

Post by esotericn »

gambiting wrote: post #89
dreamcompiler wrote: post #72

50 years from now we'll look back on hybrids as a brief transition phase in the history of automobiles. They're much more complicated than ICE cars and vastly more complicated than electric cars. Once good enough, cheap enough batteries happen (i.e. now) there's no reason for hybrids to exist.

It's as if everyone if forgetting that tonnes of people live in houses without designated parking. I have friends who'd love a fully electric vehicle but they live in a terraced house without a driveway so there is just no way to charge it. But a hybrid that achieves good fuel economy without needing to be plugged in makes a lot of sense instead.

Er.

About 7 years ago, EV charging points essentially did not exist.

Right now we have rapid chargers that allow you to drive across Western Europe with 30 minute stops.

In about another 7 years the chargers will be a complete non issue. Certainly in a place like the UK that has very few real "rural" areas.

It may be the case that for that short period it made sense to produce hybrids. We'll still look back on it as a transition period.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#200

Post by felipelemos »

seabrookmx wrote: post #19
yardie wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> both companies produced these as regulatory compliance vehicles. At one point I was completely fascinated with the Fiat 500e. Here was an electric car that was stylish, quirky, and could be had on the used market at a great price. But as I got further into it I realized that FCA hated producing this car. Its only reason to exist is to allow them to produce more pollutant vehicles as a regulatory balance. And if it…

> Lotus designed Roadster One of these passed me on the highway the other day. I've only seen a handful of Lotus in my life and never a Tesla Roadster.. it really is a beautiful little car. Pretty small (and impractical for cargo/passengers I'd imagine) though.

“Simplify, then add lightness” Chapman, Colin.

The Lotus philosophy is to create small lightweighted sport cars, after all.

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