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GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

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Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#131

Post by joshlegs »

sandworm101 wrote: post #124
gwbas1c wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point: There's basically a point sometime in the 2020s when an electric vehicle becomes cheaper than a gas car. We just don't know that date yet. The biggest cost of an electric car is the battery; and the cost of batteries is dropping very fast. Everything else is significantly cheaper in an electric vehicle except for the cost of the battery. (Tesla used to say there's a "Moore's Law" of battery…

>> sometime in the 2020s when an electric vehicle becomes cheaper than a gas car. Maybe, but the limitations of electric vehicles still mean it is an apple and oranges comparison. Electric cars are still a long way off in terms of range, towing capacity, utility and winter performance. They might seem great in California, especially as a second car, but they are still a long long way off from replicating how many non…

> towing capacity

what? Electric vehicles are vastly superior in towing capacity. The Model X from tesla can TOW a boeing jet -- 230,000 pounds. Now that has some tradeoffs for range, i believe. but in terms of actual towing capacity, it's leaps and bounds ahead of any other vehicle capable of towing. if you'd said 'towing range', i might be willing to accept that.

range itself is also just not really a concern any more. 300+ miles of range on a single charge is more than enough for the vast majority of drivers.

winter performance is possibly somethign to worry about, but when you can charge overnight at your home, you can still leave every morning with a 'full tank', so it's also just not really a concern any more.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#133

Post by cmrdporcupine »

gwbas1c wrote: post #116
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #47

Well, I love my Volt. Maybe it will be a collectors car some day. Amazing piece of engineering. I charge at work and at home and use gas about once every two months. I don't have "range anxiety", I have "range requirements"; no way I'm going on an 8 hour drive to go skiing in the Adirondacks or in Vermont with a pure electric. A pure BEV won't meet my needs.

I drove my Model 3 from Cannon (very far in Northern New Hampshire) to Cape Cod (south of Boston) just stopping to charge once. BTW, if you can do a minivan, my other car is a Pacifica plugin hybrid. It has some problems charging off of 240 volts, but it does about 30 miles on a charge. I almost never use gas.

Our other car is a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Not as good of a system as the Volt, but it's decent enough for reducing our CO2.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#134

Post by xedeon »

sandworm101 wrote: post #124
gwbas1c wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point: There's basically a point sometime in the 2020s when an electric vehicle becomes cheaper than a gas car. We just don't know that date yet. The biggest cost of an electric car is the battery; and the cost of batteries is dropping very fast. Everything else is significantly cheaper in an electric vehicle except for the cost of the battery. (Tesla used to say there's a "Moore's Law" of battery…

>> sometime in the 2020s when an electric vehicle becomes cheaper than a gas car. Maybe, but the limitations of electric vehicles still mean it is an apple and oranges comparison. Electric cars are still a long way off in terms of range, towing capacity, utility and winter performance. They might seem great in California, especially as a second car, but they are still a long long way off from replicating how many non…

You must be living under a rock. A Long Range Tesla Model 3 can easily do 1000km/day range using a supercharger and can now charge 75 miles in 5 minutes or up to 1,000 miles per hour (https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging).

EVs are being widely adopted in Europe, with Norway (harsh winters) taking the lead. I don't get the whole "EVs are only suitable in California" narrative.

https://cleantechnica.com/files/2019/07/Europe-EV-Sales-Janu...

I live near Boise Idaho (also harsh winters) and I see 2-4 Teslas in my commute and I only drive to the office 3 times a week.

Around June of last year, we bought a used Model S and eventually replaced my wife's SUV with a used Model X. So far, we do not foresee going back to ICE cars. I haven't been into a gas station in forever.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#135

Post by sandworm101 »

joshlegs wrote: post #131
sandworm101 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> sometime in the 2020s when an electric vehicle becomes cheaper than a gas car. Maybe, but the limitations of electric vehicles still mean it is an apple and oranges comparison. Electric cars are still a long way off in terms of range, towing capacity, utility and winter performance. They might seem great in California, especially as a second car, but they are still a long long way off from replicating how many non…

> towing capacity what? Electric vehicles are vastly superior in towing capacity. The Model X from tesla can TOW a boeing jet -- 230,000 pounds. Now that has some tradeoffs for range, i believe. but in terms of actual towing capacity, it's leaps and bounds ahead of any other vehicle capable of towing. if you'd said 'towing range', i might be willing to accept that. range itself is also just not really a concern any m…

Towing capacity isn't same as being able to pull heavy things. Pulling has to be matched with the corresponding braking power, which with regenerative braking means a massively over-spec regenerative system. Or you give up on regenerative braking and just install bigger disks, hammering range. That tesla can move an airbus along a runway (so can any honda civic btw) but try moving that aircraft down a hill at speed ... heading towards a sharp turn ... beside a cliff .. over a river... and maybe there is some ice.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#136

Post by lann »

lukifer wrote: post #87
dreamcompiler wrote: post #72

50 years from now we'll look back on hybrids as a brief transition phase in the history of automobiles. They're much more complicated than ICE cars and vastly more complicated than electric cars. Once good enough, cheap enough batteries happen (i.e. now) there's no reason for hybrids to exist.

One of the reasons I love the Volt so much is that it still drops much of the complexity of ICE cars, since the drivetrain is fully electric. It's basically just a low-range EV with a backup gas generator bolted on.

Uhh...no: http://gmauthority.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Volte...

Source: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/02/secrets-of-the-2016-chev...

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#137

Post by opencl »

yardie wrote: post #62
rconti wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it matter to you, as the consumer, that FCA hated producing the car? It's still cheap to buy and operate.

Because I want them to do better. As an environmentalist this vehicle goes against my ethics. It exists to allow them to sell more pollutant vehicles in California. It's all sizzle and no steak. There are better EVs out there. Most car manufacturers will take customer feedback to incorporate into newer models. FCA is having none of that with the 500e. They aren't interested in customer feedback just government CAFE r…

The 500e is an underwhelming compliance vehicle but they seem to have already changed their mind considering that next year the Fiat 500 won't even be available as a gas model, it'll be electric only.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#138

Post by zaroth »

navigatesol wrote: post #112
toomuchtodo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny enough, FCA is paying Tesla billions of dollars in ZEV credits so FCA can still sell cars in Europe. EDIT: Please buy that Tesla and support a company who actually cares about selling EVs. https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/8/18300393/tesla-fiat-chrysl...

> FCA is paying Tesla billions of dollars in ZEV credits That's an interesting interpretation. FCA is buying ZEV credits in the market, of which Tesla has a large supply. Would you describe Facebook buying servers as "Facebook paying Intel billions so they can keep selling advertisements online"? > Please buy that Tesla Every time Tesla comes up and there's negativity, there are accusations of "paid short-sellers", w…

Either FCA is paying Tesla billions of dollars for ZEV credits or they aren’t. It’s a demonstrable fact, not an interpretation. Actually I didn’t realize it was that much, but here’s a source. [1]

They need these ZEV credits in order to sell their ICE fleet. This is also indisputable.

And absolutely, yes, Facebook pays Intel billions of dollars to power the servers they use to serve ads on the internet. Now hopefully more AMD though.

[1] - https://electrek.co/2019/05/07/tesla-tsla-2-billion-fiat-chr...

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#139

Post by sandworm101 »

xedeon wrote: post #134
sandworm101 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> sometime in the 2020s when an electric vehicle becomes cheaper than a gas car. Maybe, but the limitations of electric vehicles still mean it is an apple and oranges comparison. Electric cars are still a long way off in terms of range, towing capacity, utility and winter performance. They might seem great in California, especially as a second car, but they are still a long long way off from replicating how many non…

You must be living under a rock. A Long Range Tesla Model 3 can easily do 1000km/day range using a supercharger and can now charge 75 miles in 5 minutes or up to 1,000 miles per hour ( https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging ). EVs are being widely adopted in Europe, with Norway (harsh winters) taking the lead. I don't get the whole "EVs are only suitable in California" narrative. https://cleantechnic…

>> 1000km/day range using a supercharger.

They can do that today. I;m driving a car from 2010. How are the 10+yo teslas doing? And when I say 1000km/day I mean 1000km in perhaps eight hours of driving, not eight hours of driving plus another eight hours of battery logistics.

>> and I only drive to the office 3 times a week.

So you have a part-time job in an office? That's part of the California narrative. You aren't a forestry worker. You aren't a local equipment rep. You aren't a tradesperson. You are someone with a relatively short and stable commute to a fixed location around which you can plan the battery recharge cycles. That is a luxury many people cannot afford.

>> and I see 2-4 Teslas in my commute ...

So they are still the freak/edge cases then. I saw at least a few hundred vehicles on the highway over the weekend (BC, Canada, proper mountains, sometimes 200+km between gas stations) not one seemed electric, certainly none were teslas. Lots of teslas in Vancouver, but I don't live in Vancouver.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#140

Post by freeflight »

xedeon wrote: post #134
sandworm101 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> sometime in the 2020s when an electric vehicle becomes cheaper than a gas car. Maybe, but the limitations of electric vehicles still mean it is an apple and oranges comparison. Electric cars are still a long way off in terms of range, towing capacity, utility and winter performance. They might seem great in California, especially as a second car, but they are still a long long way off from replicating how many non…

You must be living under a rock. A Long Range Tesla Model 3 can easily do 1000km/day range using a supercharger and can now charge 75 miles in 5 minutes or up to 1,000 miles per hour ( https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging ). EVs are being widely adopted in Europe, with Norway (harsh winters) taking the lead. I don't get the whole "EVs are only suitable in California" narrative. https://cleantechnic…

> EVs are being widely adopted in Europe

Indeed, just came back from a two-week vacation in Northern Germany, had to drive there from the South.

Didn't drive EV, but still couldn't help but notice that at every rest stop we made at a bigger Autobahnrasttätte there was either a Tesla supercharger station or some other brand EV charger. Could probably have made the same 600 km trip with an EV.

Tesla's have also become quite a common sight on German autobahnen, don't really notice the other brand EV's because I'm not much of a car guy.

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