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Porsche Taycan [video]

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Re: Porsche Taycan [video]

#141

Post by ratsbane »

GhostVII wrote: post #140
ratsbane wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disputing your statement... The 911 was first produced in 1963 with an air-cooled flat 6 engine mounted aft of the rear axle. The 3 series, first produced in 1975, is a front-engine car with a water-cooled straight-4 and -6 (most commonly) water-cooled engine mounted in front. So the first 911 was made twelve years before the first 3 series, is structured completely differently and has completely different engine tec…

I just don't really see any similarity between the model 3 and the Taycan other than them both being electric, they are completely different classes of cars. They have the same layout because that is the most obvious layout for a 4 door AWD electric car (i-pace has same layout too). The Taycan is a luxury sports car with good handling and the ability to run at full performance for a long time. The model 3 is a practi…

Model 3 handling has been almost universally praised as superb. I haven't read any negative reviews of it.

I have almost 40,000 miles on a Model 3 and from my personal experience with it and with other cars I've owned, including hundreds of thousands of miles on Porsche and Mercedes, the Model 3 handles the best. Air suspension will, I expect, give the Taycan a slight edge, but other than that, there's no magic dust that Porsche can sprinkle to make their car any different. Just putting the massive weight of the battery on the floor is enough to give both cars a big advantage over any ICE car.

You mention that the cars are in different classes - the only class that they don't share is price. The Porsche is predicted to cost between 2x and 3x the price of the Model 3. They're of comparable weight, size, power output, layout, etc.

You mention that the Model 3 has a poor interior - again, unless you work for Porsche or otherwise have access to as-yet unreleased photos, there are no released images of the Taycan interior. How can you know the interior is better? The Model 3 interior is simple, clean, and spartan, but I like it better than the E-class I drove before the Tesla. When I go back to the E-class, it feels fussy and baroque in comparison.

We know how advanced the Model 3 self-driving is, and it's constantly improving with frequent updates. It's really quite good. Will the Taycan be better? Perhaps, but at this point Tesla has had hundreds of millions of driving data to refine their approach and Porsche has not. Even if Porsche outsources from someone with much more experience, such as MobileEye. They're unlikely to be much better than Tesla. All of Porsche's money and many years of racing successes can't make software development suddenly leap ahead.

Finally, Porsche, in this video, is pushing the ability to run at "full performance" for a long time. That video, while very nice, didn't give any facts and figures about what that means. Tesla's had ten years and several generations of drivetrains to work out the kinks, including the overheating problems during track time of older Model S cars. When the Taycan is finally out and people can independently compare the two cars, I'll be interested to see of the Taycan is significantly better, but before that happens there's no reason to think that it will be.

Let it be resolved, then, that the Model 3 and the Taycan are in exactly the same class in every area except for price. I hope the Taycan is a great car and I'm sure it will be.

Re: Porsche Taycan [video]

#142

Post by holycrapwhodat »

kreetx wrote: post #94
davewritescode wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re also stressing repeatability of 0-60 acceleration where Tesla reports 0-60 on nearly full batteries. The Model3 performance consistency is better than the model s because they improved the cooling system but performance drops off quickly after a couple of runs. I expect the Porsche to deliver consistent performance because that’s what they’ve been talking about for the last 3 years. Specifically, the referred…

How far do the Teslas fall in terms of seconds when you accelerate over and over again? Otherwise very cool that Porsche has achieved this!

I don't think it's cool.

Look at it this way. A full battery with the highest possible voltage can deliver its highest possible amperage. Once the state of charge has dropped just a bit, and therefore pack voltage drops just a bit, the theoretical amperage that pack can deliver drops.

A P100D does it's crazy 2.4s run on a 100% SoC battery. Let the battery cool and try it again, and you'll get your 2.5s run. Let the battery cool and try it again, and you'll get your 2.6s run. Etc. etc.

IN OTHER WORDS... the Tesla motors and traction control are able to take advantage of everything the battery pack can possibly deliver. So as the pack voltage degrades, so does performance.

Since the Taycan can deliver max performance runs on a 90% SoC battery the same it can on a 100% SoC battery... that means that the motors and traction control can not take full advantage of everything the battery pack can deliver.

OR, it means Porsche literally is limiting the acceleration performance of the car in software.

Either way, Tesla wins.

Re: Porsche Taycan [video]

#143

Post by Corrado »

countryqt30 wrote: post #58

Huge fan of this -- will definitely replace my Tesla for this car!

Ever since I knew what a car was I have loved Porsche. Back in high school I bought a used 914 that was in boxes and reassembled it over the next 2 years. The highlight of my early days was getting to drive a 911 at the track.

Several years ago I visited a Porsche dealer and looked around. I left extremenly sad and disappointed. The cars were cramped and full of pedestrian doo-dads and I hated every single one of them. On top of that, the Porsche salespeople didn't even look my way.

I left that dealership and went down the street to the Tesla showroom and my life changed. They were friendly and happy to see me. They took me around the car and showed me everything. I got to rode test a P100D and was able to drive the car while the Tesla guy showed me how to do a high-speed launch and how to change the steering response while driving. It was, and still is, the best car "dealer" experience I'd had ever had!

While the Porsche Taycan is cool and it's really the only Porsche that even remotely piques my interest, it can't really compete with the Tesla. I guess I'm getting old.

Re: Porsche Taycan [video]

#144

Post by davidgould »

nullwasamistake wrote: post #123
endorphone wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Tesla's ludicrous launch is a party trick." I live in a rural exurb area. Every spring-fall weekend features parades of supercars of the various supercar clubs. Million dollar plus vehicles. All driving at 60km, driving no differently than the Corolla that accidentally turned into their procession. Because it's all party tricks. These people aren't racing these cars, but are just sitting on potential . As an aside,…

High drain isn't the problem, most lithium ion can be drained at 15-50C (drain rate not temperature) until empty without being harmed. P100D is 100kw/h battery, which should be able to put out at least 1500 hp continuously. The problem is 100% Tesla's cooling system not being powerful enough.

Not all lithium ion can be drained at high rates like that. There is a trade off of safety, lifetime, energy density and power density (discharge rate). For instance the RC helicopter batteries are rated for 100C+, but are notorious for fires and short life time. As it happens, the RC photo drones are easier on the batteries and want longer run times so there are batteries that have higher energy density but can only handle 20C. A lot of e-bike packs are built from 1650 batteries and these are best off when limited to 3C. I'd imagine the priorities of a car battery are similar.

Re: Porsche Taycan [video]

#145

Post by davidgould »

aaronax wrote: post #42
fnord77 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you only need clutches when you're stopped - to engage an moving/idling motor to stationary drive wheels. Electric cars don't need clutches because their motors stop too

Probably the car will switch between gears while in motion. It seems to me that it would be difficult to do that smoothly without a clutch.

Put an encoder on both shafts, have a control loop match the speeds, adjusting as frequently as desired, easy.

Re: Porsche Taycan [video]

#146

Post by davidgould »

rconti wrote: post #74
MegaButts wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you like the Model 3 more than the Golf R?

That depends on what you mean. My knee jerk reaction is, no, I don't. But they're different cars for different purposes for me (as an enthusiast). I sold the R around the time we bought the Tesla because the only thing we needed less than 1 $40k car is 2 $40k cars. (We've got 4 cars at the moment, though I'm currently at CarMax trying to get rid of one of them). The Model 3 is the first appliance car I've owned. But…

A good set of performance tires really wakes up a 3. Try a set of Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+, (or 4S if you never see snow). I rented a 3 LR RWD for a few days and decided not to buy, but then drove the Performance and had to have it. Yeah, the brutal acceleration was part of it, but the biggest difference is how much sharper the handling is. And this is mostly down to the squashy super efficient tires on the base models masking the capability of the car.

Re: Porsche Taycan [video]

#147

Post by velox_io »

Shivetya wrote: post #50
vvanders wrote: post #9

Glad to see competition finally coming around. That said I still wonder if they're holding back here to not cannibalize other lines. The 0-60 in the 3.5s range is over a full second off Tesla's best and for a performance brand seems like you want to be more in line with Tesla.

I really wish everyone was competing on range rather than acceleration. Range is the number one reason I went with a LR model 3. I don't give a rats ass about how fast it gets to speed. However it is nice to see an EV with range at least in Tesla territory, granted it still is 2012 territory. I posted before, no premium brand EV should sell anything under 300 miles EPA; I use EPA as it is the one returning the lowest…

It would be great if they standardised battery packs and made them configurable. So you don't need all that weight being carried around when it isn't needed, or you could rent more batteries for long journies if you rarely travel very far, maybe exchange cells instead of charging along the journey. Two-car(+) households can pool their batteries for going on holidays etc.

I don't think it will happen though. It would be tricky to get the right size/ weight that most people can carry without making it tedious (wouldn't be fun swapping 18650s around). Any larger and people would need hoists or jacks, then the is the issue of how to quickly & easily secure these large battery packs...

Re: Porsche Taycan [video]

#148

Post by CapricornNoble »

threeseed wrote: post #115
CapricornNoble wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>why do we need cars that can do 0-60 in 2-3 seconds So you can pass cars that are driving too slow in the fastlane at highway speeds. 0-60 times are a general indication of the car's torque curve and power delivery. Depending on gearing, there's a pretty good chance a car with crazy-good acceleration will have no problems "bobbing and weaving" around some slowpoke in front of you without requiring hundreds of mete…

> impromptu drag race with a random motorist Reckless driving like this consistently kills innocent people and most drivers who do this eventually end up losing their license or ending up in jail. Not sure it's the sort of target demographic car companies should be looking at.

>>>Reckless driving like this consistently kills innocent people and most drivers who do this eventually end up losing their license or ending up in jail.

Citation needed. I can't even recall the last time street racing in this part of Japan killed anyone, let alone anyone outside the vehicle itself. The combination of more stringent licensing requirements, bi-annual vehicle inspections, and overall cost all combine to keep most sports cars out of the hands of all but the most dedicated drivers. Fatal mistakes are rare here. Accidents are usually drifting-related on secluded mountain roads.

Re: Porsche Taycan [video]

#149

Post by kwhitefoot »

usrusr wrote: post #70
Shivetya wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish everyone was competing on range rather than acceleration. Range is the number one reason I went with a LR model 3. I don't give a rats ass about how fast it gets to speed. However it is nice to see an EV with range at least in Tesla territory, granted it still is 2012 territory. I posted before, no premium brand EV should sell anything under 300 miles EPA; I use EPA as it is the one returning the lowest…

The beefy motors allow a larger fraction of the required braking to go through recuperation, so it should help range as well (assuming somewhat constant efficiency at partial load). I do wish for a more reasonable EV marketing than the "guilt-free bigger better faster" that we currently see, but technological properties are not in favor of minimalistic EV. The efficiency penalty for overpowered ICE cars was much bigg…

I suspect that the motors are not the principal limitation on regen. The maximum regen on my Tesla S 70D is 50 kW whereas the total motor power is about 250 kW. I suspect it has more to do with the control system and the current capacity of components in the inverter.

Re: Porsche Taycan [video]

#150

Post by kwhitefoot »

threeseed wrote: post #117
bryanlarsen wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’ve been looking forward to the Germans entering the electric car market for real. Should force everyone to step up their game. So was I. The Audi e-tron was supposed to be that, but I've been massively disillusioned by it's horrible efficiency, high price and inability to produce in volume.

Not sure why people don't bring up the Mercedes EQC400. Reviews have been generally excellent so far.

Probably because no one has one. At least in Norway the best you can do is reserve one by handing over your name and address, no indication of delivery date, no configurator.
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