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Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

bbc.com

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Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#231

Post by liability »

gridlockd wrote: post #84
liability wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not really, that doesn't seem like an interesting question at all. Can you convince me otherwise? It seems obvious to me that while a right to commit suicide might exist typically, somebody imprisoned is obviously not entitled to it. We restrict many rights when we imprison people, and I see no reason why the 'right to commit suicide' should not be one of them. Allowing such a man to kill himself denies his victi…

> No, not really, that doesn't seem like an interesting question at all. You say that, yet you went through the trouble of writing a reply that ponders this exact question: At what point does suicide become morally acceptable? I do think it is an interesting question. I'd go the way of saying: If you still have serious responsibilities (as in this case), it is immoral. It's worth noting that suicide used to be a seri…

I can think of many situations in which suicide is morally acceptable. I'd be very critical of anybody who asserts otherwise, that would be a much more interesting conversation to have, if only because I think I could really lay into anybody who disagreed with me on that matter. Whether prisoners should be able too is less interesting, so far I've not seen a compelling argument for permitting it. It seems like a perversion of justice to allow it.

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#232

Post by liability »

close04 wrote: post #67
liability wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not really, that doesn't seem like an interesting question at all. Can you convince me otherwise? It seems obvious to me that while a right to commit suicide might exist typically, somebody imprisoned is obviously not entitled to it. We restrict many rights when we imprison people, and I see no reason why the 'right to commit suicide' should not be one of them. Allowing such a man to kill himself denies his victi…

All other concerns aside, this seems pretty unenforceable without going to some ridiculous extremes.

Preventing suicide is typically reasonably easy; suicide-proof smocks exist for this reason. Obviously you don't threaten a prisoner with criminal penalties for attempting suicide, that would be really stupid. Rather, you take measures to prevent the possibility.

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#233

Post by Farradfahren »

pasquinelli wrote: post #172
cpr wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think there isn't a vast conspiracy by the powerful to protect themselves? It's a bit too obvious to be called a conspiracy.

I've been thinking lately about what people will and won't be skeptical about. All the horrifying stories coming from escapees from north korea, for instance, are accepted without any real scrutany. But if there is a class of powerful people that publically executes people by steam roller, why is it so hard to believe there could be a network of child sex trafficing for a powerful class of people here? Or if a child…

Such crimes great large networks of people who "know too much" and have to be silenced by money. It should be easy to find out in a social graph who becomes rich just by virtue of association with a certain group/individual, no matter how previous buisness endavours failed.

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#234

Post by NikkiA »

13of40 wrote: post #114
liability wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not really, that doesn't seem like an interesting question at all. Can you convince me otherwise? It seems obvious to me that while a right to commit suicide might exist typically, somebody imprisoned is obviously not entitled to it. We restrict many rights when we imprison people, and I see no reason why the 'right to commit suicide' should not be one of them. Allowing such a man to kill himself denies his victi…

When I say "right", I don't mean what's currently granted to him by our Rube Goldberg justice system, I mean the inalienable rights of any sentient being. I've met people who think you should be able to punch out any time regardless of your situation, people who think you're responsible to get your affairs in order first, people who think it's a sin regardless, etc. This guy was in a unique situation because his esta…

> inalienable rights

Which is such a stupid phrase because most other 'inalienable rights are removed when you're incarcerated, thus they clearly aren't inalienable.

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#235

Post by aiyodev »

Nasrudith wrote: post #213
heymijo wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The injustice, is that this very much appears to be a situation where "everyone knew" but no one did anything. So okay, maybe Minsky, Clinton, Trump, or whoever didn't actually rape an underage girl or engage in sex trafficking. But they knew. That's disgusting. If someone is going to tell you that someone of Bill Clinton's magnitude doesn't know exactly who the person is whose private island he is a guest at--then t…

Who says that they actually knew about it? If they just went around telling literally everyone that sounds like a way to get busted even as a low level drug dealer - let alone as a comparative nobody vs a big name - especially with secret service protection. From the perspective of a criminal blackmailer it would make far more sense to probe interests first before getting into it.

If they visited Epstein's island, they knew. You might assume “Pedophile Island” is some cheeky name that the press came up with. But, no, that’s actually it’s name. The people who lived there called it that. If someone went to the island, they had to know.

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#236

Post by ryacko »

aiyodev wrote: post #235
Nasrudith wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says that they actually knew about it? If they just went around telling literally everyone that sounds like a way to get busted even as a low level drug dealer - let alone as a comparative nobody vs a big name - especially with secret service protection. From the perspective of a criminal blackmailer it would make far more sense to probe interests first before getting into it.

If they visited Epstein's island, they knew. You might assume “Pedophile Island” is some cheeky name that the press came up with. But, no, that’s actually it’s name. The people who lived there called it that. If someone went to the island, they had to know.

“Airport workers say they saw teens traveling with Jeffrey Epstein to and from his private island in the Caribbean”

Actual title of a news article.

This is the state of modern journalism, no one confirming a commonly known rumor until the guy is arrested. It takes a village to raise a child, but a nation to ignore it.

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#237

Post by JKCalhoun »

JanSt wrote: post #41
4ad wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who was that MIT hero? Do you have a source? Thanks.

Marvin Minsky https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798900/marvin-minsky-jef...

I failed to post this the other day (already submitted). Searched HN and it was not here. Probably marked off-topic or similar. When I called it out on an unrelated thread my comment was flagged.

I don't see a mechanism on HN to refute "off-topic" posts.

Marvin Minsky's relationship with Epstein was not of interest to HN readers but Epstein's death is?

Mystifies me…

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#238

Post by JKCalhoun »

lobotryas wrote: post #134
whymauri wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

literally heartbreaking

It’s only an accusation. It will be up to the justice system to determine if it holds any water (innocent unless..., right?). Terrible for Marvin’s reputation though.

Certainly a reminder that hero worship is misguided. People are flawed — some more than others.

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#239

Post by JKCalhoun »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #169
goalieca wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like trump was involved in at least one instance. I don’t think any lawyer would advise against flipping on that turd sandwich while Moscow mitch is running the senate.

There's zero evidence of this.

Certainly testimony anyway: https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/06/23/donald-trump-rape-law...

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#240

Post by nkurz »

turk73 wrote: post #137

Here's your choices: 1) Killed by cleaners doing the bidding of the elite to protect them and cover up their misdeeds. If so, the reach of the mighty is total and that would explain why so many politicians and public figures are scared to commit to changing anything and why police detectives commit suicide mysteriously and why so many public officials "fall in line" isn't just to keep the dental plan but to stay aliv…

> What have I missed?

I think there are many other possibilities, but unfortunately, we may never have a more conclusive answer than the one we have now. Without trying to give any particular weight to any of these:

Perhaps he unintentionally died during an "enhanced interrogation", and death by suicide is an officially sanctioned coverup.

Perhaps he died naturally of a heart attack, and for whatever internal reason (to cover for the lack of proper medical response?), the prison decided to report it as a suicide by hanging.

Perhaps he was poisoned by a guard or another inmate simply because accused child molesters don't fare well in prison. The prison decided that declaring it a suicide was better than explaining why their security was so poor.

Perhaps the rumors are true that he was working for an intelligence service (US or foreign) and he was sprung by his employer. The apparent suicide is merely a coverup to explain his sudden absence, with the prison deceived as well.

Perhaps nothing at all has happened to him, but for some reason the prosecution and defense decided that a false story about this was the best way to "flush out" some other offender.

I think the real pressure should be on obtaining proper video evidence of whatever did happen. Who knows if it's true, but there are rumors of camera malfunctions. Like police body cams that seem to avoid recording crucial moments, this would seem incredibly suspicious. Was there ever any video found for his "previous suicide attempt"? If nothing else, perhaps there can be a change in policy so that at least the expectation of video evidence will prevent some future recurrence.

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