Who Owns Huawei? • Hacker News Board

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#261

Post by indymike » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 11:21 AM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #241

bayesian_horse wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on whether or not there is something to copy...

Perfect example: Aircraft carrier operations. The US has painfully acquired the expertise and skills over half century. Thousands of aviators and sailors have died over decades until the current level of expertise has been reached. Chinese have studied and copied everything. They translated USN carrier vessel flight deck manuals into Chinese and adopted it almost verbatim. Even the colors are the same. That's really…

It is closer to a century USS Langley in 1919: https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/01.htm

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#262

Post by yorwba » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 11:26 AM UTC

rgbrenner wrote: post #83

ordinaryradical wrote: post #5

The most informative comment I’ve heard about Chinese business is that one needs to take the western conception of state / military / corporation and chuck them out the window. In essence these are all descriptive functions of the same entity in China, and any apparent separation is just that—apparent. I know some may reply that, for example, Lockheed effectively lives at this nexus also. It’s a good argument, and pr…

Yes.. there's actually a board inside Huawei of state communist officials which Huawei refuses to divulge what decisions they are in charge of and how much control they have. They say it's a non-issue because all large chinese companies have such a board. I learned this from Huawei's answer to the House Intel Committee in 2012. That committee produced a report which began Huawei's problems operating in the US: https:…

Having an official branch of the Communist Party inside a company stems from the days when they were a workers' party and needed to keep contact with the base. Huawei being unable to explain the formal decision-making powers of those representatives is unsurprising, considering that there are almost no formal rules to the arrangement. What matters is the informal function as a go-between. If the company wants government assistance for a project, they know who to ask. If the government wants the company to do something for them, they know whom to tell about it.

And yes, that applies to any company incorporated under Chinese law, even subsidiaries of Western companies (say Microsoft Research Asia, or Google China). How much power those representatives have depends on whether the company is willing to listen to them or not.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#263

Post by macspoofing » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 11:29 AM UTC

seppin wrote: post #225

tr3ndyBEAR wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, most of innovation in America also comes from the public sector not the private one. Economist Mariana Mazzucato famously wrote about this and more in her book "The Entrepreneurial State: Debunking Public vs. Private Sector Myths" which I highly recommend if you're interested. I think it's a little misguided to say that China's innovation is solely due to corporate espionage. States have always been effec…

> To be fair, most of innovation in America also comes from the public sector not the private one What does that have to do with what OP is talking about?

He's trying to argue that America is like China.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#264

Post by walshemj » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 11:33 AM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #221

bestham wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the Japanese might have copied the product, but they surly built a better more efficient factory than the one that served as inspiration.

Not instantly. First Japanese made shitty copy factory that was behind the west and produced low quality products sold cheap. "Made in Japan" was brand for cheap knock off products for a long time. Japanese cars had a reputation of being easy to break "rice cups" even in the 80's. Gradual improvement and climbing up the value chain happened in Japan, then in South Korea and now it's happening in China. Asian cultures…

Not if you know how the Japanease did it to 50's they basically took the modern production management ideas that Ford et all rejected and implemented them

Also a lot of western cars in that periods where not so hot - the Austin Allegro for one

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#265

Post by walshemj » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 11:45 AM UTC

sytelus wrote: post #87

bdz wrote: post #9

The interesting thing that after the paper was published Huawei launched a campaign about this topic https://www.huawei.com/minisite/who-runs-huawei/en/ https://twitter.com/huawei/status/1157213584985751553

So according to this, they are owned 88% by current employees. This should be very easily verifiable. Who is telling the truth here?

Any Huawei employees want to comment and maybe explain the five principals and how they work for Huawei, in particular no 2 (Democratic Member Control ) and 4 (Autonomy and Independence )

The five principals (as amended there are now 7) are the key founding principals of ALL Coops

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#266

Post by merdreubu » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 11:46 AM UTC

kyllo wrote: post #15

ordinaryradical wrote: post #5

The most informative comment I’ve heard about Chinese business is that one needs to take the western conception of state / military / corporation and chuck them out the window. In essence these are all descriptive functions of the same entity in China, and any apparent separation is just that—apparent. I know some may reply that, for example, Lockheed effectively lives at this nexus also. It’s a good argument, and pr…

Marxists have a term for what you're describing: "state capitalism."

[flagged]

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#267

Post by fit2rule » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 12:14 PM UTC

ahartmetz wrote: post #239

xxxpupugo wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of state and corporation should be separate to protect freedom is really a US phenomenon or ideal. In East Asia, the Japanese model, that later adopted by both South Korea and China, relies on the exact opposite. The government directly involves in guiding and shaping the economy. And they are smart in doing so, with the corporations being their vehicles to implement its policy and they are ones to pickin…

"To protect freedom"? That is the US catch-all argument and doesn't really say much. Whose freedom, from / for what, and what about other factors? To me from Western Europe the state and corporations are... comparable to families and sports clubs. Nobody would want to merge them for tons of reasons including personal freedom (here: separation of public and private spheres), effectiveness, responsiveness, avoidance of…

>Freedom

Freedom for the government to do what it wants with the help of corporations, and for individuals to decide to join those activities and participate freely.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#268

Post by brainpool » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 12:18 PM UTC

ahartmetz wrote: post #242

brainpool wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spot on. It is really important to understand that China does not have the same value system as the enlightened world. I am not saying that the sino mindset is inferior in any way, but it is important to realize that it is very different and that many premises we take for granted are null and void when it comes to China. The Chinese state of today is far worse than the most dystopian views the west had of Soviet duri…

Have you visited China? It doesn't feel as dystopian as you may think. I don't mean to say that everything is fine, but on the other hand regular people don't seem to live in fear of their friends or children spying on them for the secret police like they were in the GDR.

Yes, I have visited China on multiple occasions during the last few years. It has been an utterly chilling experience. I know xenophobia when I experience it, and South Africa during Apartheid was actually better.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#269

Post by bayesian_horse » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 12:23 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #241

bayesian_horse wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on whether or not there is something to copy...

Perfect example: Aircraft carrier operations. The US has painfully acquired the expertise and skills over half century. Thousands of aviators and sailors have died over decades until the current level of expertise has been reached. Chinese have studied and copied everything. They translated USN carrier vessel flight deck manuals into Chinese and adopted it almost verbatim. Even the colors are the same. That's really…

The US Navy had to innovate on carrier operations, because there was nobody to copy it from.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#270

Post by awinder » Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 12:27 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #219

jdietrich wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to note that this deep integration of corporations and the state is by no means unique to China - to a great extent, Deng Xiaoping's modernization in the 1980s emulated the chaebol of South Korea and the Keiretsu of Japan. Korean and Japanese business is based on tacit relationships between extremely large vertically-integrated corporations and the state while China has more overt elements of a command…

I feel that if the NSA were to ask for much of Google’s data right at this moment there isn’t anything Google could do, and I’m not even that sure that they would want to do anything. The same goes for FB. If they decide not to comply then both of these companies might risk being broken up or worse, so why risk it? The bottom line is that if you decide doing anything against the current US powers that be (like harass…

This past week a woman yelled loudly about stabbing Mitch mcconnell in the neck outside his house as part of a large crowd. It became a hot-button topic but no one fell out of an 8th story apartment window.

The NSA does not have a mandate to do what you’re describing, they face extensive civilian oversight and programs like their metadata collection were extensively debated in public. Are there exceptions? Yes; but they don’t have the same mandate or the same powers of control as some of these other nations, so the effect is vastly different.