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Who Owns Huawei?

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Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#231

Post by brainpool »

ordinaryradical wrote: post #5

The most informative comment I’ve heard about Chinese business is that one needs to take the western conception of state / military / corporation and chuck them out the window. In essence these are all descriptive functions of the same entity in China, and any apparent separation is just that—apparent. I know some may reply that, for example, Lockheed effectively lives at this nexus also. It’s a good argument, and pr…

Spot on. It is really important to understand that China does not have the same value system as the enlightened world. I am not saying that the sino mindset is inferior in any way, but it is important to realize that it is very different and that many premises we take for granted are null and void when it comes to China.

The Chinese state of today is far worse than the most dystopian views the west had of Soviet during the Cold War. Then the western block tried to paint as a dark image as possible of the alleged enemy. Today it seems most try to paint as an rosy picture as possible of the Chinese state when in reality it is something right out Orwell’s nightmares.

Note. I have absolutely nothing against Chinese as individuals and people. It is the state that is scary, and to be honest; intimidating.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#232

Post by IllogicalLogic »

sgustard wrote: post #160
tthhuyid wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For perspective, there are 2.3 million African Americans in prison.

Absolutely a travesty, but still you're engaging in false equivalency. The difference in being jailed with or without some legal process is significant. Study up at https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-... and acknowledge that the US's score of 86/100 is a far cry from Canada's 99, but worlds ahead of China's 14.

After 350 years of economic and social terrorism, I would say it's fair to say most of the AA people in jail did not have a fair legal process, they couldn't afford it even if you ignore the combination of systemic/overt racism.

We have to remember there are two justice systems in this country and re-introducing slavery through the prison industrial complex was something we deliberately did without good reason.... not in response to dangerous extremism like in China.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#233

Post by Fnoord »

paganel wrote: post #219
jdietrich wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to note that this deep integration of corporations and the state is by no means unique to China - to a great extent, Deng Xiaoping's modernization in the 1980s emulated the chaebol of South Korea and the Keiretsu of Japan. Korean and Japanese business is based on tacit relationships between extremely large vertically-integrated corporations and the state while China has more overt elements of a command…

I feel that if the NSA were to ask for much of Google’s data right at this moment there isn’t anything Google could do, and I’m not even that sure that they would want to do anything. The same goes for FB. If they decide not to comply then both of these companies might risk being broken up or worse, so why risk it? The bottom line is that if you decide doing anything against the current US powers that be (like harass…

Aren't we always dependent on US companies? Same for Chinese companies? Think about it for a second. If you use the Linux kernel, you use world-wide code. Its at odds with a concept of monolithic, national code.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#235

Post by spion »

ordinaryradical wrote: post #5

The most informative comment I’ve heard about Chinese business is that one needs to take the western conception of state / military / corporation and chuck them out the window. In essence these are all descriptive functions of the same entity in China, and any apparent separation is just that—apparent. I know some may reply that, for example, Lockheed effectively lives at this nexus also. It’s a good argument, and pr…

So in China, the government owns the corporations, while in the USA, the corporations own the government.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#236

Post by bayesian_horse »

nabla9 wrote: post #221
bestham wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the Japanese might have copied the product, but they surly built a better more efficient factory than the one that served as inspiration.

Not instantly. First Japanese made shitty copy factory that was behind the west and produced low quality products sold cheap. "Made in Japan" was brand for cheap knock off products for a long time. Japanese cars had a reputation of being easy to break "rice cups" even in the 80's. Gradual improvement and climbing up the value chain happened in Japan, then in South Korea and now it's happening in China. Asian cultures…

Depends on whether or not there is something to copy...

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#237

Post by sudmh »

runn1ng wrote: post #207
watertom wrote: post #142

As usual with China we are focused on the wrong issue and asking the wrong questions. Who owns Huawei is irrelevant, who ultimately controls Huawei is the issue, but it’s a simple answer, the Chinese Government. I was in China on business, we were meeting the one of the largest and most successful tech companies in China. We were meeting with the Chairman/CEO and his team. Everyone was introduced except one man, ever…

The scary thing about Chinese approach is that it seems actually working.

Of course it works. It didn't work in the past because most autocracies were led by low IQ people. When you factor that out, you get a system that works.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#238

Post by pcr910303 »

jdietrich wrote: post #165
ordinaryradical wrote: post #5

The most informative comment I’ve heard about Chinese business is that one needs to take the western conception of state / military / corporation and chuck them out the window. In essence these are all descriptive functions of the same entity in China, and any apparent separation is just that—apparent. I know some may reply that, for example, Lockheed effectively lives at this nexus also. It’s a good argument, and pr…

It's important to note that this deep integration of corporations and the state is by no means unique to China - to a great extent, Deng Xiaoping's modernization in the 1980s emulated the chaebol of South Korea and the Keiretsu of Japan. Korean and Japanese business is based on tacit relationships between extremely large vertically-integrated corporations and the state while China has more overt elements of a command…

> or the NIS want Samsung's data they just ask for it, on the understanding that a) they're not really in a position to say no and b) cooperation with the state is a mutually beneficial quid-pro-quo.

Er... just to clarify: Samsung was deeply inter-wined with the government before(from the 80s to ~'17), I’m not sure if NIS has actually requested Samsung’s data but I suspect Samsung could give out such data.

However most companies don’t; for example, the biggest chatting app Kakao (think as WhatsApp in the US or WeChat in China) refused to provide information; opened the fact that NIS requested info to the public; and revised the chatting system to only save the message for 3 days in the server and added a end-to-end encryption mode.

Just wanted to point out that South Korea’s situation is less like China but more like the US.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#239

Post by ahartmetz »

xxxpupugo wrote: post #203
ordinaryradical wrote: post #5

The most informative comment I’ve heard about Chinese business is that one needs to take the western conception of state / military / corporation and chuck them out the window. In essence these are all descriptive functions of the same entity in China, and any apparent separation is just that—apparent. I know some may reply that, for example, Lockheed effectively lives at this nexus also. It’s a good argument, and pr…

The concept of state and corporation should be separate to protect freedom is really a US phenomenon or ideal. In East Asia, the Japanese model, that later adopted by both South Korea and China, relies on the exact opposite. The government directly involves in guiding and shaping the economy. And they are smart in doing so, with the corporations being their vehicles to implement its policy and they are ones to pickin…

"To protect freedom"? That is the US catch-all argument and doesn't really say much. Whose freedom, from / for what, and what about other factors?

To me from Western Europe the state and corporations are... comparable to families and sports clubs. Nobody would want to merge them for tons of reasons including personal freedom (here: separation of public and private spheres), effectiveness, responsiveness, avoidance of conflicts of interest etc. But coordination makes sense.

Something I have noticed about large Asian companies is that there is much less in-fighting between parts of the organization, which can make up for other disadvantages they may have. In large Western corporations it seems to be everyone against everyone in mid-level management. At the lowest level it mostly looks like inexplicable inefficiencies and stupidities.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#240

Post by varjag »

akvadrako wrote: post #217
runn1ng wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scary thing about Chinese approach is that it seems actually working.

It hasn't been shown to work that well yet. Most quality innovation and research still happens in free-er countries.

Communist innovation ends when you run out of other people's intellectual property.
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