NY Times covered this in April too, with many of the same conclusions: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/technology/who-owns-huawe...
The authors of the paper are quoted in the NY Times story.
Who Owns Huawei?
131–140 of 334 posts
Re: Who Owns Huawei?
#132There’s also something the Chinese state calls “fusion centres” which is one of the most interesting facets of this intelligence-industrial complex in China. Essentially the state decides, let’s say high tech cutting edge batteries for storing renewable energy is where they want to invest in. They gather a few companies into a building that can do it or are interested. They then have state representatives who effecti…
Fascinating. Do you know any recent good books that cover the topic? I'm thinking something like Browder's Red Notice, but for China. Misha Glenny delved into China in his McMafia, but it was more about smuggling in the Fujian province, and its governor at the time: Xi.
Actually just realised. The CyberSecPolitics blog has book reviews. The guy clearly knows what he’s talking about so I have no qualms saying he probably can do better book recommendations than I can.
Re: Who Owns Huawei?
#133There’s also something the Chinese state calls “fusion centres” which is one of the most interesting facets of this intelligence-industrial complex in China. Essentially the state decides, let’s say high tech cutting edge batteries for storing renewable energy is where they want to invest in. They gather a few companies into a building that can do it or are interested. They then have state representatives who effecti…
> I heard it described by an NSA analyst in a very interesting talk. Is this talk available somewhere? I would like to hear that!
https://cybersecpolitics.blogspot.com/2017/04/fusion-centers...
Here it is, just found it. My description was completely from memory so I hope I told the story right!
Re: Who Owns Huawei?
#134Would it make you feel any better if Huawei was owned 100% by a 27-year old college dropout wearing a hoodie?
Honestly. I find it hard to see the big problem here. Huawei is run by Ren Zhengfei, who is also the public face of the company, and besides running its daily operations also formally has veto rights.
Then there is a share scheme running through a union where the shareholders have no practical say but get a share of the company dividends. These shares are good enough for employees to take loans in and the issuance of shares has been a way for Huawei to finance itself.
Re: Who Owns Huawei?
#135There’s also something the Chinese state calls “fusion centres” which is one of the most interesting facets of this intelligence-industrial complex in China. Essentially the state decides, let’s say high tech cutting edge batteries for storing renewable energy is where they want to invest in. They gather a few companies into a building that can do it or are interested. They then have state representatives who effecti…
You and the original poster have described the exact way China has, up to this point, effectively leveraged a balance between state directed means of production and corporate capitalism. It is simultaneously brilliant and terrifying. The real question is how long the communist state apparatus can restrain their desire for absolute control. If they can maintain this balance for the next 20 years, China may become the dominant superpower in the world. However, if they cannot control the party's baser instincts, the Chinese economy may collapse under its own weight within the next decade.
Re: Who Owns Huawei?
#136The interesting thing that after the paper was published Huawei launched a campaign about this topic https://www.huawei.com/minisite/who-runs-huawei/en/ https://twitter.com/huawei/status/1157213584985751553
So according to this, they are owned 88% by current employees. This should be very easily verifiable. Who is telling the truth here?
Huawei is a private company with an opaque management structure. None of its claims can easily be verified using publicly available information (nor can claims to the contrary).
Re: Who Owns Huawei?
#137There’s also something the Chinese state calls “fusion centres” which is one of the most interesting facets of this intelligence-industrial complex in China. Essentially the state decides, let’s say high tech cutting edge batteries for storing renewable energy is where they want to invest in. They gather a few companies into a building that can do it or are interested. They then have state representatives who effecti…
To be fair, most of innovation in America also comes from the public sector not the private one. Economist Mariana Mazzucato famously wrote about this and more in her book "The Entrepreneurial State: Debunking Public vs. Private Sector Myths" which I highly recommend if you're interested.
I think it's a little misguided to say that China's innovation is solely due to corporate espionage. States have always been effective at spurring innovation when it's needed. We only need to look as far back as America's highly productive and innovative war economy to see that
Re: Who Owns Huawei?
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
> state directed when needed Isn't it the same in here in the US? The president said "hey companies, you cannot trade with Huawei" and every company has to follow. My point is every government has some degree of influence on their companies. How much is another question. However in my opinion Huawei cannot be as innovative as they are with as much influence from their government as people here often suggest.
No, not the same at all. You cannot escape the Chinese government if you reach any kind of national success. In the US you can fight the government and even side with the other party and try to get the president to lose their job. Most know it's more profitable to ride a wave rather than to fight it.
You could technically do that in China also, just without an independent judiciary you wouldn’t get very far.
Re: Who Owns Huawei?
#139The most informative comment I’ve heard about Chinese business is that one needs to take the western conception of state / military / corporation and chuck them out the window. In essence these are all descriptive functions of the same entity in China, and any apparent separation is just that—apparent. I know some may reply that, for example, Lockheed effectively lives at this nexus also. It’s a good argument, and pr…
I'd like to elaborate on the unity of the different elements of Chinese society you mention.
Chinese institutions are all unified under a single structure, and that structure is the Communist (in name only) Party. Party members are embedded in every single important facet of society. Education, the military, the government, the private sector, it's all linked and unified by the party.
Now, we can compare this structure to the mammalian neocortex. The neocortex incorporates inputs from lower layers of the brain to form high level abstractions and integrations.
The West is basically functioning without a neocortex. Our institutions are not unified. There is no integrating layer above the corporate sector and government. In fact they are often at odds.
What I am saying is that China represents an existential threat to the entire project of the West. If China is able to outcompete us with their more advanced (?) organization, we will be forced to copy them or become irrelevant. This would mean doing away with free democracies and instituting a ruling party - a neocortex - to oversee the entire society.
I am not sure this would even be possible in diverse societies like those of the Western democracies. There is too much infighting and tribalism, at least right now.
That does not bode well for us.
But it's possible that cultural unity within our democracies may be sufficient to align the different parts of society to allow us to compete with China, without the formal superstructure of an all powerful Party.
Re: Who Owns Huawei?
#140> We know nothing about the internal governance procedures of the trade union committee. > We do not know who the committee members or other trade union leaders are, or how they are selected. > Given the public nature of trade unions in China, if the ownership stake of the trade union committee is genuine, and if the trade union and its committee function as trade unions generally function in China, then Huawei may b…
I disagree. I think you are used to Western Companies where the default is private ownership. All major Chinese companies began as state owned enterprises, and it is usually necessary to get investment from one to get a charter. So ostensibly private companies have a big state investment. Plus a trade union committee implies a government structure.
> All major Chinese companies began as state owned enterprises,
That isn’t true at all. A lot of the companies started after the late 80s were never stare owner at all.