The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News • Hacker News Board

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#541

Post by crumpets » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #493

cowabungacode wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would have left long ago if flagging had continued to be used to kill topics. Flagging is frequently used to kill topics still. Climate change articles are still flagged mercilessly, before any discussion starts and without regard for the high-quality of the articles. dang as a moderator has specifically said that articles about Russia hacking elections are penalized prior to any votes or comments starting (edit:…

This is true, still today I saw a BBC article stating that July was the hottest month recorded - https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49165476?intlin... A minute later I go back to the home page and it was wiped out without a single discussion comment. I don't see any reason why this type of articles should be taken down, they are scientific in nature and highly relevant. Things like climate change denial sho…

Because hottest month on record isn't scientifically interesting? Yes, climate change is happening, no, we didn't forget. The article isn't even about any attempts to do something different to fix it.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#542

Post by etchalon » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:25 PM UTC

I don't have anything insightful or critical to add, but I did want to say how much I enjoyed the article.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#543

Post by noobermin » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:30 PM UTC

azangru wrote: post #108

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #68

This article does seem to get at the essence of HN, appreciative of dang and sctb's humanity while not ignoring the problems. Personally, I would actually consider it an excellent demonstration of the fallibility of one of HN's favourite tropes, Gell-Mann amnesia. If there's one critique that I believe is paramount it's that HN has, due to its readership, an ethical obligation that goes beyond making discussions all…

> HN's prevailing attitude (e.g. cloudflare-shouldnt-ban- ). Funny, I thought HN's prevailing attitude in the case of the recent ban of 8chan was, hell yeah, good riddance to those reprehensible twats. (Which, personally, annoyed me, because I believe that even the deplored should have a space for communication.)

That wasn't my attitude at all, it was that it was mixed for the most part. You had to just scroll down a bit, which I do admit takes time and a while.

People are subject to various sampling biases, recentism, and other such biases and give can give them a non-representative sample of any forum. I will admit that HN has become more political since 2013 or 2014 when I joined, but still, compared to any other subreddit or forum it is still mostly better.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#544

Post by Faark » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:31 PM UTC

segfaultbuserr wrote: post #507

dang wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it also considers the karma of the commenters Karma doesn't affect ranking on HN. This comes up often enough that I wonder where the idea came from. Do other forums work this way?

Thanks for the official statement ;-) Interestingly, I originally believed HN is pure-upvote based, then I learned it from other HN comments that says karma affects ranking and I believed it. So I'd say it's just an unsubstantiated rumor/misinformation getting circulated in the comment section from time to time, combined with the impression of HN having a "magic algorithm", so many believed it without any fact-checki…

I would have believed you, since I feel often the same names are highly upvoted. Though this can have natural causes. Like them writing better comments. Or just popularity based on name recognition. Such feedback loops naturally existing without being explicitly implemented by HN sounds highly plausible.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#545

Post by spunker540 » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #247

FussyZeus wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually my sole complaint with HN. I love the community and I understand where the moderators are coming from, but I feel that it's important to point out that the position of "keep politics out of $X" is the purest expression of privilege, and in general is an attitude that embraces the status quo, no matter how horrifying it might be for the unprivileged. I'm not saying HN should allow ALL political discus…

Question: who does a policy of "no political discussion" most favour? The empowered, or the disempowered?

I don’t think it particularly favors either. Neither benefit from pro-life/pro-choice debates on HN.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#546

Post by whiteopinions » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

toasterlovin wrote: post #401

whiteopinions wrote: post #115

>Strict moderation I don't consider the moderation on this site to be strict at all? It's tone police more than it is content police. HN continually lets comments and statements go completely unquestioned, and in some cases actively supports view points, that are objectively wrong in the most vanilla fashion all because it was said in the correct manner.

Tone is important. Nobody was ever convinced by being screamed at. People who argue against tone policing are mostly just using that as a way to shut down their opponents.

>Nobody was ever convinced by being screamed at.

I don't think that qualifies as tone.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#547

Post by dmix » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #473

dmix wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HN in this regard is that it is both a "sjw cesspool" and a "haven for alt-right" I'm so happy I don't see the world this way. This type of worldview is so tribalistic.

I didn't read this comment as tribalistic. At it's most cynical, it's pointing out that HN manages to capture a pretty broad range of perspectives despite people's tribalistic tendencies.

This assumes that's a helpful dichotomy, which implies categorizing people into such groups, which every indication I've seen those labels are overly broad, highly inaccurate, or used whenever convenient to imply some guilt-by-association. To me they only work to be dismissive of people regardless of the merit or quality of their points and splits everything down ideological lines, which naturally pushes people to protect their side with an us vs them view of things.

HN should work towards having thoughtful discussions and providing useful contributions. It shouldn't be about tolerating particular political views or not. That shouldn't be the mod's job.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#548

Post by ckris » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

mikemotherwell wrote: post #537

jasim wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The political discussions that make their way into HN are very US-centric and that excludes me and countless others who actively participate here. A lot of such discussions are not real enough to me - they are problems of a much more privileged world. If we were to have truly political discussions, we'll need to include all the other countries of the world, which none of us would want. There are other places where po…

I was shaking my head in disagreement, until I read: > If we were to have truly political discussions, we'll need to include all the other countries of the world, which none of us would want That's a really, really good point, and I'll keep it in mind when political topics arise.

I do think it is an underappreciated point, but also arguably why politics should be part of discussions. Not having to talk politics is really something that is earned. It is when you have a solid enough foundation to your field or profession that you feel secure enough in to not have to address it. In computing or software, we don't really have that. So people run out of vocabulary rather quickly, ending up in arguments like nationalism or free speech because there often isn't an intermediate layer of something like regulation or duty that you can be discussed by everyone. That is ultimately more a factor of the "everything goes" attitude, because if "everything goes" everything is also relevant to the discussion.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#549

Post by dang » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

resters wrote: post #211

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #68

This article does seem to get at the essence of HN, appreciative of dang and sctb's humanity while not ignoring the problems. Personally, I would actually consider it an excellent demonstration of the fallibility of one of HN's favourite tropes, Gell-Mann amnesia. If there's one critique that I believe is paramount it's that HN has, due to its readership, an ethical obligation that goes beyond making discussions all…

> But as this article shows, abdicating the responsibility by keeping the topics sterile is similarly suspect, in the sense of fiddling while Rome burns. I believe a willingness to confront the ugly sides of technology with some courage of conviction would eventually be recognised, even if it may occasionally involve a bit of a mess. Absolutely true. The failure of mods (and even pg?) to recognize this is the single…

Nobody's "keeping the topics sterile". Threads about "the ugly sides of technology" are common on Hacker News. Of the topics you mention, surveillance is frequently and massively discussed; as for Palantir, https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story....

You may feel it's not enough, but nothing is ever enough: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme....

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#550

Post by arendtio » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

FWIW, I find that the political discussions here are still a lot better than in most other places on the internet and sometimes I find them quite valuable.

For example, I have a pretty solid attitude against genetically enhanced food and where I live, there are quite some people who think likewise (central Europe). But through HN I learned, that there are other places in the world, where such food can significantly improve the lives of many humans and where educated people can't understand how on earth you can possibly be against using such technology.

I find such insights very valuable because it shows me how limited and filtered ones real-live perception can be.